From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Eric Abrahamsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: sqlite3 Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2021 12:21:59 -0800 Message-ID: <87o85tcwm0.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> References: <87tufmjyai.fsf@gnus.org> <877dcil2sj.fsf@ericabrahamsen.net> <87czm98qi1.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="23641"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: cesar mena Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 06 21:23:57 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1muKWh-0005vp-4k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 21:23:55 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33432 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muKWg-0001Fy-7J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 15:23:54 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35260) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muKV3-0007w5-JX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 15:22:13 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.ericabrahamsen.net ([52.70.2.18]:45760) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muKV1-0006gN-Gg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 15:22:13 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost (c-71-197-232-41.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [71.197.232.41]) (Authenticated sender: eric@ericabrahamsen.net) by mail.ericabrahamsen.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 38AECFA08F; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:22:01 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ericabrahamsen.net; s=mail; t=1638822121; bh=0IQpdHfel9TOL17ajBh55dcHqnmT0M3LyRVKqK4OiRc=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=POpqRm1eByPRp9ye16gPncwQi/p/5jYrmxmUlHKyMtoY+VTe9UbF/3Z0XM0K9TqMH POTbRY08qPOvaKDkN+UMP7qbAA+67OqF398oEQSJwvX/JWW7Udj2paTEJtGPn54fEt gybo+F1KmfXfssDYwtAjsaskCMMEB5fR04Trs3Mc= In-Reply-To: <87czm98qi1.fsf@gnu.org> (cesar mena's message of "Mon, 06 Dec 2021 11:47:34 -0800") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=52.70.2.18; envelope-from=eric@ericabrahamsen.net; helo=mail.ericabrahamsen.net X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:281173 Archived-At: cesar mena writes: > Eric Abrahamsen writes: > >> Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: >> >>> I think many user experience things in Emacs would be better if Emacs >>> remembered more. >>> >>> The bigger systems don't have this problem -- Gnus needs a large >>> .newsrc.eld file, and it maintains that. >> >> A plea from the heart: Gnus also needs a better data store, and sqlite3 >> is the answer to that need. The .newsrc.eld format is not okay. > > Unclear about this comment. Lars specifically stated that this is for > things that fall in between tiny (use customize) and bigger (gnus etc ...): > > The bigger systems don't have this problem -- Gnus needs a large > .newsrc.eld file, and it maintains that. > > The tiny things don't really have this problem, either: You save options > with `customize-save-variable', and that fine. > > Are you proposing a move to sqlite3 for .newsrc.eld? Well, Lars is the Gnus maintainer, not me, so all I can do is propose! But yes I am, though only for group marks. Right now .newsrc.eld combines concerns: it saves variables such as `gnus-server-alist' and all the topic stuff that would be better saved as customization options (or saved in a separate file, using the customization machinery). It also saves group parameters, right next to the marks. I've long felt that the data above should be kept in a separate file, that's expected to be user-readable and even (to a certain extent) user-editable. It's *mostly* set through Gnus' own interface, but you could certainly tweak it by hand if you wanted. Marks, however, are meaningless to read and practically un-editable. Their presence in .newsrc.eld makes the file slow to open and scroll, and has given rise to a meme of "don't touch the .newsrc.eld file, you'll destroy everything". That in itself is a sign that we're using the wrong format for this data. In terms raised elsewhere in the thread: the variable data is user-editable, and should be version-controllable. The mark data is not realistically editable through any interface but Gnus's own UI, and is not appropriate for version control. Ergo, it should go in its own file, and a sqlite file would be a perfect choice for that. It seems likely that *requiring* sqlite support is a non-starter, so this would only be an option. But ideally I'd like the options to be 1) keep the marks in their own text file, that contains nothing but group names -> mark info; 2) keep the marks in recutils; 3) keep the marks in sqlite; 4) write your own mark-saving backend. That's it! Eric