From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2022 10:09:41 +0000 Message-ID: <87o7td7qfu.fsf@gmail.com> References: <25a8a3a6-81c8-3fbc-434d-fb1b24ae1d62@gmail.com> <83cza48lxe.fsf@gnu.org> <87cza0ihb7.fsf@gmx.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22863"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, eliz@gnu.org, akrl@sdf.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 11 11:08:52 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1otQxw-0005ey-41 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 11:08:52 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otQxd-0006Eu-SX; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 05:08:33 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otQxc-0006CD-Da for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 05:08:32 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1otQxa-0000Ts-PA; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 05:08:32 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id i10-20020a1c3b0a000000b003cfd36eff5fso169829wma.3; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 02:08:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=upySpSXGjY+cPpdUvtzoG73jcXoGCipIdBvOwKNTu7E=; b=VcS1b1vUwk89vlTyMJryXLr4yigQeXHMbmXVGFe/HfeUEy3RK3VQNmZm0cc460s4qi jj9mLI0erm72ljwPIcPp3mtI4neq5astJeALEiOk6hxV4WQrq7BOSI6VZyo1uagVEEE5 3KDSB3XbUYgJv43wkrZlq3FeGvhF4hiw21Zw30RZBTFLQ0cj843aZjT4dQE61opdJNST YpUKG5LIcxBDMrJQBaih1364v4GfP3X0UnBmG7bGDYumJ5OdvZnjJ4rt5EUAtD9wCAMH C9SyBVbym+LbhJChDOWZUtXnpKjjSxZ4hVv0fcdPvcJeJkKZWuEV9JNIawj2XDP6ymNk us/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=upySpSXGjY+cPpdUvtzoG73jcXoGCipIdBvOwKNTu7E=; b=RWnq/z83YHJp3WAfP7SmB2OFQ8vYzLmMZ3EuOry0CwvJ/wwbgP/eMeYzJkG3Y+A+8/ iMT5IW2Q1mUevG3KUFh0T3M8YEoy2lNVISkVsHvS25vpDGRRuCNSEfg5/DPX8gm0mgPL 0N0LQ2n7DPTFFkiM9xQSTj/AGYtg+zTRLfYlwnoAhI4pm+GVy6ZQrL8UbjSqziog1+jt +XfyhJ1lI3/yDjlIyFQVN2oorlyp1wNoc1gLQ8IVyVITJEGJouM2nYl8393cCt+LNH87 KyPB1gbLYIZvD53PBOQFqi0ros1UcxqTlN3gUvh/2iTneGm+j0emYdrCF0qEuJ3x7Lb4 Ec3w== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pmwZIkcmrhHGId0m8IthuqeFyXiI7sFw3M+QpY/Kxc9nKMEqWKt 2QCGeJJcZyuQgaDEzeMcaVXo4Hs47BE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf5H/PrlINVKK0fFkrqfIgLffqgfHow/+0nD+NqY1vAeU4qFKdFbOUaSl9oK2UdkJ6G1lh+N2Q== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f60a:0:b0:3cf:9a12:e645 with SMTP id w10-20020a1cf60a000000b003cf9a12e645mr710201wmc.59.1668161308029; Fri, 11 Nov 2022 02:08:28 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from krug ([87.196.81.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id bi19-20020a05600c3d9300b003c6c1686b10sm7701178wmb.7.2022.11.11.02.08.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 11 Nov 2022 02:08:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Thu, 10 Nov 2022 23:35:14 -0500") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::335; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x335.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299558 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > Now I see why you think this is not necessary. Your idea for how to > handle s.el is to use an edited version, edited to specify shorthands. The magnars-string.el file is meant to supersede s.el and be a well-behaved version of it. The s.el file, as it exists today, is a namespace-polluting liability, we shouldn't maintain it. The good thing about shorthands here is that minimal changes need to be done to both the library and its users, so making packages in (Non)GNU ELPAs and core start using magnars-string.el is very little effort which is well worth spending. > > Providing two different ways to load an .el file so that each interns > > different > > symbols into obarray would lead to unfortunate consequences where it = would > > be hard or impossible for humans or programs to understand the proven= ance of > > a given symbol. > > I don't follow you here. What problems do you see? If I find a bug or want to add some function to that presumed s.el that your string.el is loading specially, I have to somehow remember to load it with shorthands. The usual commands C-M-x, M-x load-file, M-x emacs-lisp-byte-compile-and-load will all produce wrong results that I won't know how to fix. This is uncharted and dangerous territory: after your change, information about where to intern symbols of an Emacs Lisp file would no longer be completely contained in the file itself. For non-human users, violating this invariant would possibly also break tools that map files to symbols, such as C-h f (describe-function) and M-. (xref-find-definition). Jo=C3=A3o