From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: contributing to Emacs Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2023 06:25:51 +0200 Message-ID: <87o7ktio5c.fsf@web.de> References: <83v8fnslfz.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1kgdax7.fsf@web.de> <83o7lc91kh.fsf@gnu.org> <87leggd2cu.fsf@web.de> <83ilbk8u1k.fsf@gnu.org> <448f75fb368e4ae61dd8bd7899047602a806228a.camel@yandex.ru> <83h6r48a02.fsf@gnu.org> <83mt0v70d3.fsf@gnu.org> <03bef840fc28d46a2ffbf9c94c18a3cbf96de08f.camel@yandex.ru> <83cz1q75do.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7la5cw0.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0q1my6k.fsf@thaodan.de> <87mt0nktkv.fsf@thaodan.de> <87ilb9p3g5.fsf@ypei.org> <874jmlsp0n.fsf@thaodan.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33676"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.10.3; emacs 29.0.90 Cc: Richard Stallman , Yuchen Pei , mailman@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B6rn?= Bidar Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 03 07:03:02 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qGBiH-0008WO-09 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2023 07:03:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qGBhO-0004TE-Hq; Mon, 03 Jul 2023 01:02:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qGBhL-0004Sn-N5; Mon, 03 Jul 2023 01:02:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qGBhH-0003ft-7s; Mon, 03 Jul 2023 01:02:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=s29768273; t=1688360512; x=1688965312; i=arne_bab@web.de; bh=oWEqSY14QAau8VNLidp4TbxJCENnoAiMWgz/tCeIa30=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to; b=rkVAjKcgoOCaf0JEDTLRjujovDEclt/mdLycq1IBYPG/tWzCImf5k1ei7berVrRFx3OZh89 K7jn+VD8Tt0R6d4nmEbrGBAuBsqA4SgVFeU+zTjisrjRtAlLteKADE4eMO4YXK0ZZqpLsLKQK GYvc54FbON0tJYwrSEkbTO1F41N9Keuj6BiXBef2WGs5AUI+EQvehudF0tUmrCyBL/dv/TwFf 24nMSsdPF3vPyRYzLL5ksJJ6QyWSVjg5AlurixOobtxamRzcDDA5pWxxobJAJ8nf7WgOi7tHH izGLTHkkq1ZqW6o7atn/XLFJsH7GNnPq1hh3FmWWyFVF78Dicpug== X-UI-Sender-Class: 814a7b36-bfc1-4dae-8640-3722d8ec6cd6 Original-Received: from fluss ([84.165.25.222]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MxYXF-1q5Wbh1iPZ-00xmVY; Mon, 03 Jul 2023 07:01:52 +0200 In-reply-to: <874jmlsp0n.fsf@thaodan.de> X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:EQQw2dyBeX3H1rGqS9AlsdfuejarhBeuHwPQiDfW3cak+XxJY/G OrGYyR0B1aQOBKLsvquFI8SLZoMPPd0iDRQpMlUv3bSAhI7SaXAqxFk1JN1KErLur8qJ+AQ 2/Gwf9VvXjYZfB6PG7zPvx/SNDDwVTB7PgcS061mQGSREELizGdn2kO7ySxGDQyjrTTypt0 1+Qafi3wzZmWEKX0k6VbA== UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:sGDrfkQxD6c=;Gg4W0rpwVI8SQruHkUlNi5UtbPk miajgtme6IYpPZGa8/xw1Tl5icHCOx6PWujUf5cqYAQ58B6WJOPxdKmBP4xIsZmLe1FD2Y9hN L3YXdNi98zQBJF5DxDom4sUW6JHDOYpWinS71IYMwVHqD1PkBRpW3ZKuXzgeJ69uGwNWD8uq/ F4kVFy0AnixwaX1O8hQ1iUyrTCmhDsJWSfRddjwswJVWeB4vC63jAV0s9peGa1zRAHsrzWwUl lI8omjtYGGvJqR+96EG0/6CgunsT3M2mi0YoE2GCAfCU8vjTSlnKbIFz9wcduvgs7AMM4Quek Ebuj37KzF9k28DPTDR0eVZ9OVjWsDMvBUyXZKeGXXyPvxj9k3BTakoB5/t3Qqg8eCqHxeFBRs /ZhOI6ksuw/yJuL+MrcFsXBzCl4dnTvfOnY8X0ETFeAFjn8lWBm0bVb1Fqk9aLyQ6rUUhs820 DyjIehi+SCiOAYQL3CMogDzUzbyy+815wWwS9Ahn478qoaCVbojSqA7Uuw4a8A7SAeaWkHjCF oW8rAA+S15rY1db82SmUc3d/sL5JKm5zj+SuSIdEnxjZFvOlXRjvhYoTgxgvV5tZtth9UJdFK HXDz4XpI2w2ib5VrQBfRzFz/nr6znMyndjAnZ9yBpgQSWPpZlnwhJmT1h74k4mFrfzWB9fZ0n QbLhSaOpnGh6gwklhhH/8dtwjjAMwsihMrQszi1VWTW4OUK2iN3yhBbBJogq0MpycsST7j/+M QtwpgdJRb7aD6l/Mr2c040I6FweqCNnczvx8w490ukE5eWmFkuc6PYmziuYESK1FezLY6qmz Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.3; envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:307382 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bj=C3=B6rn Bidar writes: > Richard Stallman writes: >> > One problem with Hyperkitty is that it requires javascript to display >> > any message, which is makes it kind of useless in non-js browsers li= ke >> > eww and lynx. >> >> Features that require Javascript are totallky unacceptable if the JS >> code is nonfree (see https://gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html) >> and problematical even if the JS code is free >> (see https://gnu.org/philosophy/wwworst-app-store.html). > > Why do you assume JavaScript =3D nonfree? Mailman3-Hyperkitty is free sof= tware. If he had assumed that, the second part of the sentence (problematic even if free) would not make sense. =E2=87=92 just quoting policy, not implying something about hyperkitty. >> We should avoid web features that send JS code, whenever possible. >> Sending code to run immediately in the user's computer, in a way that > > Besides avoiding JavaScript in modern web is impossible in 99% of the > cases besides for websites that load all of their content synchronously > on the initial load of the page. While this is true in this very precise wording, the large majority of websites that use Javascript can be implemented such that all of their content is loaded on initial page load =E2=80=94 including interactivity th= at can be provided via CSS and standard form-validation. The advantage of using that approach is that it usually degrades more gracefully when using simpler frontends like lynx or ewww =E2=80=94 I=E2=80= =99ve been limited to a text terminal quite a few times already while trying to find answers to a problem and being able to read bug reports from a browser that does not support JS is very useful for that. (that said: if JS is used for progressive enhancement and the site is usable without JS, this just uses more of the capabilities of powerful clients without locking out those in simpler browsers https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Glossary/Progressive_Enhancement ) >> gives the user community no feasible opportunity to study the code and >> release modified versions that people have a real option to use, >> undermines the freedom of free software. > > You can't modify code of content that is loaded of from other computers, > the entity that hosts a web application such as Hyperkitty is in control > which JavaScript is shipped. > > In such a case GPL isn't enuogh as you don't have to release modified > versions of the app, AGPL is required.=20 This has also been discussed a lot already and is addressed in a third article: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/network-services-arent-free-or-nonfree.html =C2=ABIn this case, we call it Service as a Software Substitute, or SaaSS (= we coined that to be less vague and general than =E2=80=9CSoftware as a Servic= e=E2=80=9D), and such a service is always a bad thing. =E2=80=A6 However, most services' principal functions are communicating or publishing information; they are nothing like running any program yourself, so they are not SaaSS. They could not be replaced by your copy of a program, either; a program running in your own computers, used solely by you and isolated from others, is not communicating with anyone else.=C2=BB @RMS: this article is not linked in https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html but it appears that it would be useful to link it there, maybe in the sentence =E2=80=9CWe are addressing the server issue separatel= y.=E2=80=9D Best wishes, Arne =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, ohne es zu merken. draketo.de --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAmSiVj8QHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD60O3D/93waSoJxC8WvTirUydXnQ6SFHQWtbl7wnh Mz0wRYkugqtuojOqaOiNd1eAZASfaZO0SoNJBgM9OJt3yLIpGFk0uPR+IeX2BBAo lsyXaq31vmbomuh2gCv4ONxdBQAsDjTOOgjEGeZbrpk6DSyu/xE1KJLnwHmeUdUt TkwjY+3zDtczYQDlz9ipOpFon3HSTr9FOUThUl5XD4N8SNVOx115Yff8SYjfNZNf Aq9yFdYUTIlwN25fUGCw9PS8r4VTSYwht1YPp+MQGxq6j2O14vYmfmTPyUK/LbKd D678qHuWm54c7P/g1XkoDtS8vAnbN6qgmKTmZnLfXy7wX4mnsnY0vMUZiX1yenL5 +0WVBxpKf4NSojzACTk+pfrAJVzEN1po2UFXgL1iZpONvmUHczol6+YuHXK3wgmE 8k0nwVvPepAzl7KkKQm8wkthcmX7bRw1oZTh6F6oFLNM1SmYv4ofGRE0BMtrRTRs fy7gYJAHgmwLgUMhacJ1extsub8Era4uVgtK9MqN9yobyYcFVJV/nGFUpAYO7Aj4 IMsfg9HWSGMNW6btAbO7HQaSakhXIz0BQJH5XFcnAIkU2/bqRs3VjybGCiKmn3cO SuuClbb+qN2ico6ddIioChtWY/XsHmQETQARzZTWCGRxMJx6PfpijyOYtbpS2XtV F3Hzq0EhYIjEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAmSiVj8QHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSFYBA/9eIfWm15unyfXRZAUiI0F1iL8R o72IeVCV3s1paCz406Do+CpfahKCFSC+XrEO4jjUCh2ya/aES8TgugsSIcJm70Gx cn5mc5HbVYihIGCKeUfxhxQPiMut7x3HAjTvsIkPgponptCFejm6eZoH+lDZvNtR rika28AOb8jugMo0Lg== =MHF1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--