From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Karl Fogel Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On the subject of Git, Bazaar, and the future of Emacs development Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:26 -0400 Message-ID: <87mwtd10yp.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> References: <87ehf1cwc4.fsf@maru.md5i.com> <20130331220136.GA16863@saturn> <83ip44iw3b.fsf@gnu.org> <83mwtef9f5.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Karl Fogel NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1365278387 26410 80.91.229.3 (6 Apr 2013 19:59:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2013 19:59:47 +0000 (UTC) Cc: John Wiegley , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Apr 06 21:59:49 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1UOZH3-0007UX-Ku for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:59:41 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42541 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UO83I-0006OO-0l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:48426) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UO83C-0006O9-Vw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UO837-0002rG-0h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-vb0-x22e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400c:c02::22e]:43748) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UO836-0002r8-SZ; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 10:55:28 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-vb0-f46.google.com with SMTP id 11so2162637vbe.19 for ; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 07:55:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=x-received:sender:from:to:cc:subject:references:reply-to:date :in-reply-to:message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=mZShOPUzad5Pl4goHRHVAYdV+TV0CI+7OVCHTGO4ZwY=; b=heOssgMg42Lo/ASrQ94A22/8npTeXuJZgpK1EO1PzCWsUHCasKS2ehxco+Ky6l1aLc T+x6i9YWGoNxkQcM8xhpVMwYMw0ypZe9mzRyaghHpvFM/vzg0JlU+qMBawo48OVRrVC9 ycTmdhxujZ8yE4pcetmWdOynRn2q3uI85Wlsj0jm4zlJY+Dp6riS5zwozNxNEAJOhiYP tPOcXug4qR88CEVAer8DRCdBYbpwiVnh+CmUqQHrT7FAcFinQGN4cfwr1eY0GoW1Wjmw C8ZN3ZpvTEH05SPNkqb9fFP/iwSTrnJVjgZOEJXdWZuqV9t/JA2TGNTzl6Bi/TtXKyBP O59A== X-Received: by 10.59.4.101 with SMTP id cd5mr8491888ved.14.1365173728136; Fri, 05 Apr 2013 07:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from floss.red-bean.com ([74.113.160.38]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cl8sm1209356vdb.0.2013.04.05.07.55.26 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 05 Apr 2013 07:55:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83mwtef9f5.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 04 Apr 2013 21:16:46 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400c:c02::22e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:158677 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: John Wiegley >> As a data point: if Emacs does decide on Git, I'll become a more >> active contributor again; if it doesn't, I have other things to do. >> Bzr/Mercurial is enough of a "joy-stealing" barrier that -- like now >> -- I would not be interested in submitting my work upstream. And >> this same situation is true for some others as well, as evidenced by >> voices on this mailing list. > >I'm very sad to hear that, because I think it is improper for >contributors to put up such an ultimatum for a project. I hope that >people who contribute to Emacs (and any other project) are first and >foremost interested in advancing the project, and any other >considerations are secondary. No ultimatum here; John made a statement about a development barrier. If Emacs stored its master repository on punch cards and the only way to contribute were to send in new cards by snail mail, some developers would post saying "I'd like to be more involved, but the snail mail thing is joy-stealing barrier for me." Obviously that's a contrived example, but it is different from what John said only in degree. >At least that's how I reacted when Gawk and Make switched to Git: I >gnashed my teeth and adapted. I hope so will you. All developers do cost-benefit analysis when deciding where to spend their time. The fact that your calculus differs from John's doesn't mean you're doing anything qualitatively different from him. Think of all the free software projects you like & use but don't contribute to, even when you've found a bug. You're engaging in the same calculation: the entry cost of fixing that bug is too high, so you choose to spend your time elsewhere. But sometimes, you might mail a project and say "If your build process [or whatever] were easier, I'd be more likely to contribute." This would be no more an ultimatum than what John said. -K