From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Christopher Allan Webber Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 12:39:58 -0600 Message-ID: <87mw72lyzs.fsf@earlgrey.lan> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1417804980 3847 80.91.229.3 (5 Dec 2014 18:43:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 18:43:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: esr@thyrsus.com Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 05 19:42:53 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwxq8-0000OS-Fz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:42:52 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52015 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwxq8-00037I-49 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:42:52 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33656) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwxpy-000306-Cn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:42:48 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwxps-0005HH-7V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:42:42 -0500 Original-Received: from dustycloud.org ([50.116.34.160]:60679) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xwxps-0005H6-2B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:42:36 -0500 Original-Received: from earlgrey.lan (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dustycloud.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AAF826652; Fri, 5 Dec 2014 13:42:34 -0500 (EST) In-reply-to: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 50.116.34.160 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:178983 Archived-At: Eric S. Raymond writes: > Several recent posts in the metaproblem threads have had the common > theme that Emacs's web resources are weak, scattered, and unfocused. > In particular, guidance for new developers that should be public, > prominent and webbed is buried in obscure text files deep in the Emacs > source distribution. > > I think the major reason this has not happened is because the Emacs > development culture is still largely stuck in a pre-Web mindset. > There are a number of historically contingent reasons for this, but > enumerating them is not really important. What matters is recognizing > that this is a problem and fixing it. 100% agreed. > There are two reasons it's a problem: one of capability, one of > positioning. > > The positioning problem is that info/Texinfo makes us look like a > steam-powered archaic joke to younger developers. Text-only > presentation with obtrusive links and a complex command set for a > viewer that's *not a web browser*? In 2014? Really? Agreed here too. > I have discussed this with RMS and, pending my ability to actually write > proper translation tools, we have agreed on asciidoc as a new master > format. This is what should replace Texinfo and the gallimaufry of > ad-hoc text files like /etc/CONTRIBUTE and the admin/notes stuff. Here's where I'm a bit surprised... I'm not sure that new GNU projects should have to use Texinfo, but why not put efforts into improving Texinfo's HTML output? - Chris PS: We use Sphinx for documentation in GNU MediaGoblin, and it has an option for a texinfo output, but also provides *excellent* HTML output.) PPS: I know some Guile developers have told me that Guile has a very good set of texinfo processing modules, maybe could be helpful here in modernizing GNU manual output, but I'm really not sure.