From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ivan Shmakov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:10:35 +0000 Message-ID: <87mw71nc9g.fsf@violet.siamics.net> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> <87r3wem9g5.fsf@violet.siamics.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1417806676 31630 80.91.229.3 (5 Dec 2014 19:11:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 19:11:16 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 05 20:11:10 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XwyHV-0006pC-ME for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 20:11:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52145 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XwyHV-0004LP-7Y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:11:09 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41745) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XwyHD-0004LI-SB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:10:53 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XwyH7-0001Dt-Ok for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:10:51 -0500 Original-Received: from fely.am-1.org ([2a01:4f8:d15:1b86::2]:49796) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XwyH7-0001DI-AU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 14:10:45 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=siamics.net; s=a2013295; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date:Sender:References:Subject:To:From; bh=2LWmzQ0s9CGp1jlde4tb1WWYtv5bGJQZWJfPfQHLFM0=; b=QviLart3tdPS1IpXRWb9nGdienCPbyEpOptHgfM/aI+0S8jyR1Y0chel9HjeRj9y5lKDqkmADBNzJMaADy3jseIAT2TFSIhREhbaZxFdfvpZ45jg+0/o1KQiEm8PluAJnlXgjVW6L6xd3XN7izpD9Imx3bcyY+oVEJVR1I1uAWQ=; Original-Received: from [2a02:2560:6d4:26ca::1:1d] (helo=violet.siamics.net) by fely.am-1.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XwyH5-0001nu-7f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2014 19:10:43 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=violet.siamics.net) by violet.siamics.net with esmtps (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1XwyGx-0000JZ-RB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Dec 2014 02:10:35 +0700 Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Fri, 05 Dec 2014 13:12:01 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.3 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a01:4f8:d15:1b86::2 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:178992 Archived-At: >>>>> Stefan Monnier writes: >> Also, the above made me curious of what exact features of the HTML >> presentation are felt missing in Info? (In relation to GNU >> documentation, anyway.) > The main issue with the Info format is that it's not designed to be > parsed. ACK, thanks. I guess I should=E2=80=99ve really figured this simple thing out myself; and the rest becomes pretty obvious, indeed. > Even the tiny bit of parsing that's expected (i. e. find menu entries > and hyperlinks) is not very well designed (e. g. restrictions on the > kind of characters that appear in a menu entry). > So we can present it "as is" in plain-text as was done back in > Emacs-19, but it's difficult to prettify the various elements in a > reliable way. We do try to do it (e. g. hide some of the verbosity > of the hyperlink's syntax, Curiously, this particular Info mode behavior was mentioned on IRC not so long ago (2014-10-28), where a participant claimed it was an unwanted feature with no documented means to disable (sans redefining Info-fontify-node.) Which then prompted me to dig somewhat into the history. As I was able to find, while this feature was already available in 2004, the use of (setq Info-fontify-maximum-menu-size nil) to disable it was indeed only documented 2007-02-10. =E2=80=A6 The point is, I guess, that there=E2=80=99re those who still fol= low the ways of Emacs 19-or-so, and are just happy with that. Forcing all the Emacs years-long users to switch to EWW for reading Emacs=E2=80=99 own documentation would be (irrespective of how do I like EWW and HTML myself) a sure fail. > use different fonts for different elements), but this is inevitably > very limited because it's all done heuristically: e. g. the Info > format does not tell us which part of the text is "text" and which > part of the text is "quoted code", so we can't refill (which would > sometimes be needed after hiding the hyperlink syntax) and we can't > use proportional fonts for the text part since that would mess up the > code example parts. Somewhat tangential to the discussion, investigating possible means to make shr.el use (setq truncate-lines nil word-wrap t) for the text at the top of the =E2=80=9Crendering tree=E2=80=9D =E2=80=93 = instead of plain filling =E2=80=93 is on my =E2=80=9Cto do=E2=80=9D list. (The curre= nt implementation effectively assumes a fixed-width font; see, e. g., shr-width.) --=20 FSF associate member #7257 http://boycottsystemd.org/ =E2=80=A6 3013 B6A0= 230E 334A