From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:45:36 +0100 Message-ID: <87mw6ugv0f.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> <5484FF31.5010808@cs.ucla.edu> <5485FC59.5030700@cs.ucla.edu> <87388p6glt.fsf@engster.org> <871to9lw6g.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <5486A704.6090305@cs.ucla.edu> <87k321jj4e.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <54876F7F.9000607@cs.ucla.edu> <87y4qfj2u9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <54889A57.5060905@cs.ucla.edu> <87vbljb9f4.fsf@wanadoo.es> <54889F6D.6060408@cs.ucla.edu> <87r3w7b83a.fsf@wanadoo.es> <5488C710.3000209@cs.ucla.edu> <871to7ayv9.fsf@wanadoo.es> <5488DC0C.2070402@cs.ucla.edu> <87d27qin2j.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87sigm4d8s.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87vblih039.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87tx12mk8k.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1418305830 28526 80.91.229.3 (11 Dec 2014 13:50:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2014 13:50:30 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: phillip.lord@newcastle.ac.uk (Phillip Lord) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 11 14:50:23 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz48H-0005MK-PO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:50:17 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51474 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz48H-0001VL-Dp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 08:50:17 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46808) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz48A-0001Qy-Oc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 08:50:14 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz489-0001Oq-Dc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 08:50:10 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:42521) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz489-0001Om-BT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 08:50:09 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49696 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Xz488-0002Yj-Ti; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 08:50:09 -0500 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 49D47E664A; Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:45:36 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <87tx12mk8k.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> (Phillip Lord's message of "Thu, 11 Dec 2014 12:41:47 +0000") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:179754 Archived-At: phillip.lord@newcastle.ac.uk (Phillip Lord) writes: > David Kastrup writes: > >> phillip.lord@newcastle.ac.uk (Phillip Lord) writes: >> >>> David Kastrup writes: >>> >>>> Again: Texinfo is not a relevant hurdle. Elisp is. >>>> >>>> Org most certainly would be a larger hurdle for me. >>> >>> Well, lots of people here are saying that texinfo is a problem, even >>> if it is not for you. >> >> As long as I don't see those "lots of people" offering to contribute >> non-marked up manual sections either, it is irrelevant whether they are >> saying texinfo is a problem for them. > > > At the risk of repeating a point that has been made before, yes, of > course it is the case that for the majority of people who are actively > using texinfo to produce documentation for Emacs, texinfo is not a > problem. > > The incremental approach, however, of first enabling the use of org so > that some of the documentation could be written using it and then > transforming this to texinfo (to work with the rest of the tool chain) > would be interesting. It would, for example, allow you to see whether > org would be a problem for you in a real environment. The main reason brought forward for abandoning Texinfo appears that it has become slower. So we convert instead to a system that is even slower in order to indirectly produce Texinfo which we will then _additionally_ convert to Info? > If it works, then the eventual aim could be to throw out texinfo and > replace it with org by simple virtual of writing a org->info exported > (direct rather than through texinfo). Would still be slower than now, correct? > Or removing info and using org->eww usable HTML for in Emacs > browsing. Except that eww is a very basic browser, and not even the non-basic browsers for HTML are even remotely comparable in performance and usability to Emacs' Info browser. And the HTML format cannot support full-document search from a single-page display on principle. > Or, supplementing org with a "kiosk" mode, and just using the org > source directly as a viewing format. > > If it doesn't work, then you will have been right all along. So far, I don't see anything that would ultimately address the perceived problems. > It's the reverse Yoda approach: "try or try not: there is no do". Yes, I understood that this is all about hipsterisms. But hip does not get the work done or redone. -- David Kastrup