From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 10:32:12 +0900 Message-ID: <87mw6pg0kj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <20141205123549.GA29331@thyrsus.com> <87ppbqb6s1.fsf@gnu.org> <87h9x2f9me.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87a92uf8ik.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <8761dif6ib.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87k31xkue1.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87mw6tj8gp.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87sigifh44.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <4B54FE1A-8C4A-43BA-9DA4-5E83419B912C@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1418607176 1839 80.91.229.3 (15 Dec 2014 01:32:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2014 01:32:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Richard Stallman , emacs To: chad Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 15 02:32:49 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y0KWm-0002Gb-CS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 02:32:48 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37661 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y0KWl-0005uW-Vk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 14 Dec 2014 20:32:47 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44256) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y0KWP-0005tS-Cq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Dec 2014 20:32:32 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y0KWF-0001iE-Qs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Dec 2014 20:32:25 -0500 Original-Received: from shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.161]:59175) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y0KWF-0001i0-Gt; Sun, 14 Dec 2014 20:32:15 -0500 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57A641C38AD; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 10:32:12 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3A8FD1A2CFC; Mon, 15 Dec 2014 10:32:12 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <4B54FE1A-8C4A-43BA-9DA4-5E83419B912C@gmail.com> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" acf1c26e3019 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 130.158.97.161 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180118 Archived-At: chad writes: > True, but weve already seen both interest in doing so and moderately > near misses in existing code posted to this thread. This seems > like a fairly minor concern. Not really. The question is practical: can such a system be as agile as Info is? I believe the answer is yes, except but browsers are heavy beasts. It may not work as well as we hope. > More troublesome (at least to me) is the fact that the closest we > get to such a browser in emacs is xwidget. I don't see why that's relevant. ISTM that people who advocate use of HTML intend to use full-featured browsers like Firefox anyway, and probably won't even bother to learn the hotkeys for Info-style navigation. Emacs can have its own documentation browser with a UI based on Info mode. > I might be wrong, but I believe that Richard is generally unhappy > about software that the user runs without really being aware. Surely not. Running without your knowledge of the details is *what software is for*. Richard of all people is aware of that -- that's why software freedom is so important, so you can exert control when you choose. Even most modern content formats are basically programs with specialized interpreters (hello, PDF -- it's 10pm, do you know what mischief is executing in your Postscript[tm] printer?) Another way to look at it: do you know the names of all the libraries that are loaded in your Emacs? (In my XEmacs I currently have a features variable of length 442. The first 100 or so are all library features.) > It would be interesting to see browsers and javascript packages > adopt a GPL-compatibility declaration, Good luck. The people advocating HTML are using IE, Firefox, Chrome, or Safari (or DFSG variants of the above, where legally feasible), I'd bet. GPL browsers are minor. > There are practical ways in which users can exert some control over > client-side javascript today (GreaseMonkey, NoScript, and the like). I think that's a much better approach. I really don't care if the code I'm running is GPL or another FLOSS license or public domain. After all, the browsers I use most of the time aren't even GPL themselves. I don't think crackers and phishers will hesitate to fraudulently present a GPL assertion, either. So what I really want is a feature that tells me that I haven't run this script before and asks me if I want to run it.