From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 16:39:40 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87mustqugw.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <83k1nxvm5j.fsf@gnu.org> <877ejxsm18.fsf@toy.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536331249 18635 195.159.176.226 (7 Sep 2018 14:40:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 14:40:49 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment?= Pit-Claudel Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 07 16:40:45 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fyHwB-0004jL-Pj for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 16:40:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38982 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyHyI-0001wS-9P for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:42:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36421) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyHxf-0001sj-7p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:42:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyHxe-00032x-Af for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:42:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p01-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5301::9]:33864) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyHxd-00032C-PA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:42:14 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536331332; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=5yfwW7WBOHzSfiuzjXV1cDhnSfzuqpJ92vfQhHmiZyw=; b=oiy7EQHiDVQ5GvVGBR9OLZ15AkqK3oMrB024VbNBJb8VtfJjynZvvy4Fva+3SJ36Fp W9pW9XeLQg8kxxHXTn2I7fg9MveTH/2p7nC98fj1WnXMid9PAindZgtZE54tLvaI15WI oIuqnPWwayzS5143BB85KYHnkNtAPHNPQwqpqknGvuyrpVryzyDQ3nqdxnN0TBX3S98O 5QqUK5n3X0lhu/G9H8gzuEtcsCz7VX7OV2fF5jqpnb75W0yt8MEVR/jcb9ccx+/1JYs6 ij51DWbDLktfLub89I90G95QhxrqANmDx4VBJ6/ccm1u1F9DjFzitAW0U7Y1+loBxM8x aCQw== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u87EgBCgT (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Fri, 7 Sep 2018 16:42:11 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fyHxb-0000yQ-2O; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 16:42:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5301::9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229410 Archived-At: Cl=C3=A9ment Pit-Claudel writes: > On 2018-09-07 05:18, hw wrote: >> When a selection is active, why would anyone assume that typing an >> arbitrary letter is supposed to replace the entire selection, or to >> disable it? > > Out of experience, mostly. When almost every other program you use > besides Emacs behaves that way, it's easy to assume that Emacs will > behave the same way. It's not my experience because when I want a selection deleted, I delete it. If it gets deleted otherwise, that's a mistake or maybe even a bug when no undo is available. >> Allowing that to happen is simply a design flaw, or an >> oversight. > > I prefer to think of it as a very convenient feature. For example, as > I typed this email, I first wrote "as I composed" instead of "as I > typed", pressed Control+Shift+Left Arrow, and pressed "typed". > Similarly, I had first written "I call it" instead of "I prefer to > think of it", and the way I changed one into the other was to select > "call it" and type "prefer to think of it as". > > This select, then type to replace behavior is the norm in most > programs I use outside Emacs, and it doesn't sound like a design flaw > to me. I call it a design flaw because if whoever made it this way had given any thought to it, it would at least be customizable --- and, as said, because when I want a selection deleted or to be unselected, I delete it or unselect it, and having a selection randomly disappear like by tying letters means making a mistake worse. Software supporting users in making mistakes and making the mistakes even worse suffers from design flaws unless doing so is the very purpose of the software. I suspect that one important reason for the dangerous and careless dealing with selections you find in many other programs is that the developers couldn't be bothered to find a better way. The behaviour is inconsistant, too: insert a frame into a text document with Libreoffice, keep the frame selected and type something. Surprise! This obviously hasn't been thought through, and the behaviour LO shows here is a design flaw. > Of course, Emacs' default behavior can be very convenient too, > and it's good that it can do both. right Maybe the default should be changed, as well as Alt-left and Alt-right should go backward and forward in info history. But then Emacs would default to supporting users in making mistakes and make them worse.