From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers (was: "Why is emacs so square?") Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 14:14:50 +0800 Message-ID: <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="48022"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Richard Stallman , Ahmed Khanzada , "joseph.h.garvin@gmail.com" , "stefan@marxist.se" , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" , "eliz@gnu.org" , "drew.adams@oracle.com" To: ndame Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 19 08:16:02 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3FJ-000CMd-TW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 08:16:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38070 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3FI-0005W6-9J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:16:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59750) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3EL-0004XY-LW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:15:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3EK-0000YA-Dh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:15:01 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.186.146]:40611) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ3EJ-0000WN-TI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 02:15:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1587276898; bh=jHxjfqaqvSi8jrCZk2y14hixVkhxWVBwuxWz55FZhPQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=Kk9nzRBO9WpBNGKKeNWRM7YSrcx16XIywvoIb/r9MpjBZjd0fm1GS9Rh1Uv++7BGe+fe785tkIvqgFCPhQb3kfVTUDRf0ZmQ5Z6coLDyM61h6SxrZEFZ0AhesPlknpm0ygPZBLdpsRs6GjVwPK4FaampKl/ChzkgwAv55BVf/9hqDTNy0yXHBWJn2I3W0qsnd+TuIphQ2ne7VI5OK4TyNNDQR1H/hi+V5ycNY00YX5D9W4qY8aR+50j4BxjLW3letbMg6PwbzVOyXpgqfqMybckRiLfsjrR6uk0Aac0H3y5qa8u24d0Tx4SaP+6ehcQKy7hmMc11gv8eNIjluFFWUg== X-YMail-OSG: 5MehR70VM1kKtV7O6Jw.R213KxhuqpOmSKkTm02.5K2p57qHPeuknWdSJpMP8qz 3mEj7Qz3EPEM.oUhKIoF0.1kLY1X4oDcCWXdR5EJSFQp44HhHjFNYXvnbrBbWNe1qLobSwQjozrn GkdNT0DGXYfFXK.bMRmbAv6OKecXfQuDhdZ24eF2PVQa.lsw7CqvheN.OKsKcRgNH3qjRMAYFCGL _43HqzwDx98m5_AwbHVZuUvXGX1try5ILqVxYpXcxKYk_VIi_IxYnHOm5YIaamL8jfpZaEjrIDFR boYUues7t86GypV2Vw.TabYRP8v_mPNGX7Lwbeih6vwrdkjJlyPhNE0zNCtbbnI6N0.jsgdKZLi2 LvfELSktXwi.zL6JmkvoUuJqHa1aeb0wHrf7E7ETWO0fI8bBSoAJQil_gQGLhdOzKIA9uBVvmZSN t5sQoggxZn3xdZDUVgLYTbzuVpJgP59oemglAJnp7MyztXK9X98gThyQWUCFr9u7To_j7.MYEZV7 lAyhUAqbNFqVeGk5b36CPlBOIL6wb4dA_Tit0_EiwSc2.0YnTZnEkqaB7syx4uIshvWVZMwPxvsX qUBls09W9Z6lWztu99VrQ2kH2Np.aKwQrlb5YZo.ItCM.EuGMWjctwnFp8fxtSQ.h5IiaPOVwxSF dDrHLzPpFv8u9oEO.Sqkhncbe3SYuM45bWOKBGL5kq6xGFHYfsRYXBsgYcex7NNMw0PxpCuXfnMS uI35sR5nhzwIx.0qJ99mMmXlKUKAYOZahQOxIjTcS0tOCg.KKZpLaPyHl0XCCYdMn5dBcR6aKslp 4BulyScR_LHenVYiAiqqJkE9Q.EaxW9_YW8ya0oIR_ Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 06:14:58 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp432.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 6690587c7f140d34640582b6ac0a243e; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 06:14:53 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (ndame@protonmail.com's message of "Sun, 19 Apr 2020 04:55:41 +0000") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.186.146; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic302-20.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Linux 3.1-3.10 X-Received-From: 66.163.186.146 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247274 Archived-At: ndame writes: > Looks good. These are the changes Emacs needs, so it has a nicer first > impression for users who come from mainstream tools to give it a try. I don't think the general goal is for Emacs to imitate popular tools, but instead to make it a mainstream tool. To achieve this, we do need to make Emacs more friendly for newcomers, but we shouldn't erase the traits that make Emacs unique (such as extreme extensibility and customizability). IOW, everything added to make Emacs more friendly should be optional (but easily discoverable), and should not break backwards-compatiblity with existing configurations. Emacs has endured for 40+ years. I doubt that without the Emacsen I remember using with squeals of delight (Epoch, XEmacs, Emacs 19), and the various improvements they curtailed that Emacs would still be where it is now. Let's help Emacs endure another 40 years.