From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?K=C3=A9vin_Le_Gouguec?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 13:45:15 +0200 Message-ID: <87mu6xtano.fsf@gmail.com> References: <20200426172206.GC18629@ACM> <87y2qhnc9a.fsf@gmail.com> <20200427102311.GA4976@ACM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="47209"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Stefan Kangas , Emacs developers To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 27 13:46:25 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jT2DR-000CBW-BB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 13:46:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41094 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jT2DQ-0000hC-C4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 07:46:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57272) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jT2CO-0007wS-9g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 07:45:20 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jT2CN-0008A2-4k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 07:45:20 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x32c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32c]:36450) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jT2CM-00087A-NQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 07:45:18 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id u127so20083482wmg.1 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 04:45:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/KDm5+0vCEqe3Rll1rIVEFOM02A70BG2s/9lh0vhgL4=; b=H1YE+kE6DUAfy4E87UFSm0wVyslcuEHA+VSAsg7+asvF/dxnsI2rO921/NVEr5cuij o4E5JFAC5+nbEHKJqSg5vWfwBcMXykZEB7P6aorTB/d0EIzXQrcn+iYX7i0En8VwJprc Mkrh7gnPxBMYM//xtqEoeYiLVyvB+ZgngPi3qar9/986frS8x4Eze4v7SO5sdp+BBDr5 K1l46KDx1eYT7IkB0P+a5uvhZiHgzWq8FI9IwFj8JJ0utReKD6h2gMKM1rjnEVt8ZUU4 QHpyBylBBYMETWRmUQGZKS+1+OB+WE3hkYI4NFA/juiH40YokVy6+ZNYaS1c5w72AIH8 UrBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/KDm5+0vCEqe3Rll1rIVEFOM02A70BG2s/9lh0vhgL4=; b=RN1FeUpvw8J8YlIvS1IzFt5gzOdna33bPPiakfIbbWjvqsRCuriR/D+po7GgK41ZZZ NuSDPKT7cNyrnRkrKZ1YF6h++rIkmNcz3HDe3vOg5HNqLTCcwhZ7b9noy0Nx/o42ZY0p q31+a3xL9ZxsyN0O1vj7blJD9ZCaMOrB6UYfqt2zMxbaeIDNCZQbQFoZfmvFJMUeazct o8d2kNM7pzxk7fKJ1P7O6wMm6+9DXbQzwy6eG4NkDpE2sZVvcydc9yZhJkiAr9AF4J7X plknYq7ks9USCEsCu1j6o+ttfgAp2BocJh1Mfx1I3ZsfNopWJRkT0C4goAnkg/5b6V3m FBJA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYP3dh3REIH2uJZi2FSM3SSlIo/xbcPBuZ3gwAqLJBj2IUO5wsX NuxAABMYNsjcCyt6Gc/qUbW4KEeacu9hrA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLHiJ2JZJsVsQF7H1nLciKHCkCTP/Je8Wdmgk5tK+4/6Ii00sIw5ztJS4orXj7+S+n9QOjLew== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:5446:: with SMTP id p6mr25645774wmi.172.1587987916922; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 04:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from klegouguec-HP-ProBook-450-G1 (200.143.13.109.rev.sfr.net. [109.13.143.200]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q18sm14471453wmj.11.2020.04.27.04.45.16 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Mon, 27 Apr 2020 04:45:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200427102311.GA4976@ACM> (Alan Mackenzie's message of "Mon, 27 Apr 2020 10:23:11 +0000") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::32c; envelope-from=kevin.legouguec@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x32c.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::32c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247913 Archived-At: (Apologies for the duplicate message Alan, I hit reply instead of followup.) Alan Mackenzie writes: > Hello, K=C3=A9vin. > >> - I don't think I will ever manage to remember any of the keybindings >> for the outline-(show|hide)-=E2=80=A6 functions, which means I will ne= ver be >> able to use the "selective display" feature advertised in >> outline-mode's docstring without a cheatsheet. > > Neither can I. When I need it, which is rarely, there's C-h m. As I said in my reply to Drew, this is what I call a "cheatsheet" :) I have no complaint about C-h m, C-h b, C-c C-h, as long as I need them "rarely", as you say. When reading an outline, I _frequently_ open and close headings. >> - With org-mode, I can simply TAB my way through a document without >> figuring out whether what I want to show/hide are entries, subtrees, >> children, branches, leaves, sublevels, bodies=E2=80=A6 > > But you can't use TAB to indent a line, or alternatively to insert a tab > character.=20=20 A fair point, though correct me if I'm wrong, but it does not look like we indent NEWS entries? org-mode has a few ways to work around this conflict: - TAB on an "empty" heading (e.g. right after one inserts a heading) cycles through section levels (by adding/removing asterisks), - If org-indent-mode is nil, sections bodies are "hard-indented"; TAB on section bodies indents them to (1+ section-level), C-j auto-indents new lines. (Frustratingly, org-mode uses what I think of as the "old" convention to use RET as "plain newline" and C-j as "smart newline with indent".) - If org-indent-mode is t, bodies are "soft-indented" (with line-prefix and wrap-prefix). Any of these could be useful additions to outline-mode IMO. > And how is a non-specialist user reading NEWS for a new > release going to find out about this TAB binding? By default, org-mode only shows top-level section headings; subheadings and bodies are elided. The ellipsis is a visual cue that there are things to expand. Once the non-specialist user has this "EXPAND-ME" cue, admittedly they still need to learn the binding. Luckily with org-mode, there's just one: TAB. I wish I could reply "well obviously the non-specialist user will just click on the heading and voil=C3=A0!", but it looks like one needs to (require 'org-mouse) first. Ah well. No reason this couldn't be enabled by default in outline-mode. >> So, while I agree that org-mode is a sledgehammer for e.g. idly browsing >> NEWS, from a user's point-of-view (at least this user) and to borrow >> your terms, outline-mode "is a monster" with countless esoteric >> keybindings; > > There are not "countless" keybindings in outline-mode; there are just 26 > defined commands, only some of which will have bindings. By contrast, > in org-mode there are 798 defined commands. That's a factor of 30 > greater. Right, let me qualify this better: - There are 11 commands with bindings for selecive display in outline-mode (5 show, 6 hide). - There is only 1 command I care about for selective display in org-mode: TAB. >> meanwhile, I definitely don't "have to know" org-mode to use it; I >> just mindlessly hit TAB on the thing I want to show/hide. > > That may be true up until somebody decides to insert some obscure > org-mode construct into NEWS. With over 4 magabytes of source code > implementing it, there will be more than a few such constructs. No argument there; I'm not advocating for using org-mode with NEWS. Though for all of org-mode's complexity, I have yet to see an Org file where "mindlessly hitting TAB" does not show/hide the heading at point (=E2=80=A6 as long as point is on a heading).