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[180.150.91.8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 141sm1371757pfb.50.2020.09.08.23.26.46 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 08 Sep 2020 23:26:48 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::444; envelope-from=tecosaur@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x444.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254848 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > That describes how it felt, subjectively, to you. > That's a consequence of some concrete things about DOOM, > I am sure -- but I have no idea what those concrete things _are_. I appreciate the difficulty. Unfortunately, as you point out this is a single subjective impression of qualitative factors that are generally hard to pin down. I welcome any attempt to corral my jumbled thoughts into something actually useful, and will try my best to communicate which factors had the most impact on my experience :) > Can you describe even a few of the concrete differences of DOOM that > made it so easy for you? I suggest not aiming for completeness, > but rather mentioning the ones that are most important. > > That would be the information we might perhaps draw concrete lessons > from. > > > IMO the most significant factor is that Doom allowed me to "just get > > started" with the tasks > > Could you describe a few of those tasks, and what would have been > hard about them, which DOOM made easier? So, the task that got me started was using R, notebook style --- i.e. R + Org. This is what the process was like with Doom: - run the one-line install script - opening the config dir is prominently listed (with the associated keybinding) on the 'home'/init/welcome buffer - I find three files, well commented, describing what they are and what to do with them - I see ESS listed in init.el as a 'statistics' module under :lang C-c c k pulls up the documentation on it (as I am told by comments at the start of the file) and I see that it does indeed add support for R. I uncomment the line and run 'doom refresh' - Excluding install time, I think this took me ~5 minutes At this point I have: - Support for R - Completion via Company - Linting via Flycheck - A fuzzy searcher for commands I don't know with Ivy - When I pause on keybindings (what was that next part?) which-key pops up. - An editor that appeals to my 'flashy modern' sensibles + A UI/theme more inline with Atom/VS Code/etc. + Git status gutters + A modeline that tells me nice stuff like To get here all I needed to know is that I wanted to use R, notebook-style with Org, hoping to see the 'editor features' that I missed in JupyterLab. In order to get to this same point with Vanilla emacs I'd need to: - Identify ESS as the package for R (quick search online) - Work out how to install packages + come across conflicting answers on the web. use-package? straight? package-install? - I'd try an R block in org, and get told: "No org-babel-execute function for R!" + what's this? how do I fix it? - Once I get that working - where's the completion I was hoping for? + another internet trip... - Etc. Unfortunately I can't imagine this taking a comparable length of time, or being nearly as easy. I'm not sure that Emacs can embrace the behaviours that people who have primarily experienced the likes of VS Code/Atom/JetBrains/Sublime/etc. will be looking for, without compromising the experience that long-time users have come to expect. Perhaps the way forward may be to treat standard Emacs as a core and prominently offer 'distributions' of Emacs? Possibly the best thing about Emacs IMO is its versatility. I suspect that trying to be all things to all people could be a futile task, but maybe Emacs can lean into this and say to a new user: - if you're looking to use Emacs like X, here you go - looking for Y instead? Then just use/do this - actually want Z? Here's that option... This seems like something where some selection of: - modules - profiles - embracing distributions could improve the situation. Anyway, that's just my thoughts. Hopefully they're of some interest. > I'm also curious about how why you decided to change from DOOM > to standard Emacs? Erm. I haven't switched from Doom to standard Emacs. Apologies if I incorrectly implied that somewhere. My journey was (excluding pre-emacs): Spacemacs (for a brief period) =E2=86=92 Vanilla (for mere hours) =E2=86= =92 Doom [aside: why I'm still on doom, http://ix.io/2wUw] I feel that for the purposes of this discussion, it would have been nice if I'd spent longer trying to get vanilla/standard Emacs working --- but I didn't. However I'll still offer what I can in the hope that it may be useful. All the best, Timothy.