[ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

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Given the ongoing thread on a friendler Emacs, maybe this is not 
the best time to propose this new package that aims at providing 
an alternative splash-screen
I've no idea if it's ok to propose such a package for inclusion in 
ELPA.

Here is a mockup:

+–––——————————––––––––––––––––––––––––––––———————————————————————+
|                                                                |
|                                                                |
|                                                                |
|                                                                |
|                                                                |
|                                                                |
|                         <www.gnu.org>                          |
|                     GNU Emacs version XX.Y                     |
|                      Type Ctrl-h for help                      |
|                                                                |
|                                                                |
|                                                                |
|                                                                |
|                                                                |
|                                                                |
|           GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY          |
|        Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.       |
+–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––———————————————————————+

- No logo (not even in graphical mode)
- Vertical and horizontal scroll bars are hidden
- Modeline is hidden
- " ", "x", "q", <esc>, <return> or <mouse-1> kills the splash 
  screen
- "C-h" shows the regular startup screen
- Splash screen is automatically killed after 3 seconds
- With emacs-mac (Mituharu), splash screen is faded out after 3 
  seconds

Usage:
 (require 'splash-screen)

Nicolas

splash-screen.el:


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Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> Nicolas P Rougier <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr> writes:

    > - No logo (not even in graphical mode) - Vertical and horizontal

I have a picture of my cat in the splash screen. How would I do that
with your set-up?

    > scroll bars are hidden - Modeline is hidden - " ", "x", "q",

If the modeline is hidden then how do I see if I have new mail?


Best wishes,

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> writes:

>>>>>> Nicolas P Rougier <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr> writes:
>
>     > - No logo (not even in graphical mode) - Vertical and 
>     > horizontal
>
> I have a picture of my cat in the splash screen. How would I do 
> that
> with your set-up?

You cannot. 

>
>     > scroll bars are hidden - Modeline is hidden - " ", "x", 
>     > "q",
>
> If the modeline is hidden then how do I see if I have new mail?

You cannot.

But you have the choice to not use it.

Nicolas

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Stefan Monnier]

> Here is a mockup:
>
> +–––——————————––––––––––––––––––––––––––––———————————————————————+
> |                                                                |
> |                                                                |
> |                                                                |
> |                                                                |
> |                                                                |
> |                                                                |
> |                         <www.gnu.org>                          |
> |                     GNU Emacs version XX.Y                     |
> |                      Type Ctrl-h for help                      |
> |                                                                |
> |                                                                |
> |                                                                |
> |                                                                |
> |                                                                |
> |                                                                |
> |           GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY          |
> |        Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.       |
> +–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––———————————————————————+
>
> - No logo (not even in graphical mode)

I think I agree with it: having a picture was useful in Emacs-21 to
showcase the fact that we can have pictures in our buffers, but I think
nowadays our visual prowess won't impress anyone anyway, so we may as
well proudly display our devotion to text.

> - Vertical and horizontal scroll bars are hidden

Fine by me.

> - Modeline is hidden

I think I'm OK with it, but this is slightly dangerous, in case this
splashscreen ever gets displayed when there's more than 1 window in the
frame, in which case the resulting display could be confusing because
there could two windows without any visual separation between them.
If we can avoid that corner case, I'm fine with it.

I like the minimal design, yet I can't help wanting to put more:

- While it technically does say "Free Software" it only does that within
  the copyright statement.  So, maybe we should have something like

    > |           GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY          |
    > |  Look ma!  No license agreement!  This is truly Free Software  |
    > |         Copyleft (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.       |

  And various parts of that text would be hyperlinks.

- We currently have a "GNU/Linux" hyperlink which it would be good to preserve
  within the last 2-3 lines.

- I think many first time users may not want "help" at first, so maybe
  beside "help" we should advertize a "config wizard" or a "choose your
  favorite UI" which would get them to some simple customization page,
  where I'd expect choices like "traditional Emacs UI" or "emulate
  system UI".


        Stefan

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> Nicolas P Rougier <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr> writes:

    > Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> writes:

    >>>>>>> Nicolas P Rougier <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr> writes:
    >> 
    >> > - No logo (not even in graphical mode) - Vertical and >
    >> horizontal
    >> 
    >> I have a picture of my cat in the splash screen. How would I do
    >> that with your set-up?

    > You cannot.
    >> 
    >> > scroll bars are hidden - Modeline is hidden - " ", "x", > "q",
    >> 
    >> If the modeline is hidden then how do I see if I have new mail?

    > You cannot.

    > But you have the choice to not use it.

Indeed.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

>> - Modeline is hidden
> I think I'm OK with it, but this is slightly dangerous, in case 
> this
> splashscreen ever gets displayed when there's more than 1 window 
> in the
> frame, in which case the resulting display could be confusing 
> because
> there could two windows without any visual separation between 
> them.
> If we can avoid that corner case, I'm fine with it.

Good point, I need to think how to cope with that case. My initial 
idea was to show this splash screen only at startup and if there's 
nothing else to show (a file argument would prohibit the display 
of the splash screen, I've just modified the code to do that, but 
not the two windows case).

> I like the minimal design, yet I can't help wanting to put more:
>
> - While it technically does say "Free Software" it only does 
> that within
>   the copyright statement.  So, maybe we should have something 
>   like
>
>     > |           GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY 
>     > |
>     > |  Look ma!  No license agreement!  This is truly Free 
>     > Software  |
>     > |         Copyleft (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 
>     > |
>
>   And various parts of that text would be hyperlinks.

For purely aesthetic reasons, I would prefer to stick with no link 
on the bottom part. Also, I'm not sure to understand the 
"copyleft" you mention. I took the two lines at the bottom from 
the "about-emacs" startup screen.

> - We currently have a "GNU/Linux" hyperlink which it would be 
> good to preserve
>   within the last 2-3 lines.

I'm not sure what your refer to (I don't see such link on the 
default startup page).

> - I think many first time users may not want "help" at first, so 
> maybe
>   beside "help" we should advertize a "config wizard" or a 
>   "choose your
>   favorite UI" which would get them to some simple customization 
>   page,
>   where I'd expect choices like "traditional Emacs UI" or 
>   "emulate
>   system UI".

Currently, the "C-h" redirects to the about-emacs where a new user 
would find supplementary information (as he currently does).


Nicolas

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Stefan Monnier]

> For purely aesthetic reasons, I would prefer to stick with no link on the
> bottom part. Also, I'm not sure to understand the "copyleft" you
> mention. I took the two lines at the bottom from the "about-emacs"
> startup screen.

I think Emacs should emphasize the fact that it's Free rather than
gratis and the underlying ideas of freedom and the copyleft technique to
enforce it.

>> - We currently have a "GNU/Linux" hyperlink which it would be good to
>>   preserve within the last 2-3 lines.
> I'm not sure what your refer to (I don't see such link on the default
> startup page).

Sorry, I looked at the "About Emacs" page rather than the startup page
(which I have disabled in my .emacs).

>> - I think many first time users may not want "help" at first, so maybe
>>   beside "help" we should advertize a "config wizard" or a   "choose your
>>   favorite UI" which would get them to some simple customization   page,
>>   where I'd expect choices like "traditional Emacs UI" or   "emulate
>>   system UI".
> Currently, the "C-h" redirects to the about-emacs where a new user would
> find supplementary information (as he currently does).

But the average users won't necessarily know it and they'll (rightfully)
think "an editor shouldn't be so complex that I'd require help right
from the start" so they won't do C-h and won't get to see that
extra info.


        Stefan

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Juri Linkov]

>> Here is a mockup:
>>
>> +–––——————————––––––––––––––––––––––––––––———————————————————————+
>> |                                                                |
>> |                                                                |
>> |                                                                |
>> |                                                                |
>> |                                                                |
>> |                                                                |
>> |                         <www.gnu.org>                          |
>> |                     GNU Emacs version XX.Y                     |
>> |                      Type Ctrl-h for help                      |
>> |                                                                |
>> |                                                                |
>> |                                                                |
>> |                                                                |
>> |                                                                |
>> |                                                                |
>> |           GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY          |
>> |        Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.       |
>> +–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––———————————————————————+
>>
>> - No logo (not even in graphical mode)
>
> I think I agree with it: having a picture was useful in Emacs-21 to
> showcase the fact that we can have pictures in our buffers, but I think
> nowadays our visual prowess won't impress anyone anyway, so we may as
> well proudly display our devotion to text.

Maybe instead of a picture display a video with a guided tour?

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> I think I agree with it: having a picture was useful in Emacs-21 to
> showcase the fact that we can have pictures in our buffers, but I think
> nowadays our visual prowess won't impress anyone anyway, so we may as
> well proudly display our devotion to text.

I wouldn't be so sure -- I think there's still a lot of people out there
that think that Emacs is a text-only editor.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

> I think Emacs should emphasize the fact that it's Free rather 
> than
> gratis and the underlying ideas of freedom and the copyleft 
> technique to
> enforce it.

But is it the right place to do so?

> But the average users won't necessarily know it and they'll 
> (rightfully)
> think "an editor shouldn't be so complex that I'd require help 
> right
> from the start" so they won't do C-h and won't get to see that
> extra info.

I replaced it with "Type <i> for more info". Note that a brand new 
user will not see this screen since it is a package that needs 
first to be installed.

Nicolas

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

> Maybe instead of a picture display a video with a guided tour?

That would be too intrusive I fear.

Nicolas

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Stefan Monnier]

> I replaced it with "Type <i> for more info". Note that a brand new user will
> not see this screen since it is a package that needs first to be installed.

Small technical detail,


        Stefan

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > - While it technically does say "Free Software" it only does that within
  >   the copyright statement.  So, maybe we should have something like

  >     > |           GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY          |
  >     > |  Look ma!  No license agreement!  This is truly Free Software  |
  >     > |         Copyleft (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.       |

There is no agreement you have to sign, but there IS a license:
GNU GPL version 3 or later.

The splash screen must give this information.

  > - We currently have a "GNU/Linux" hyperlink which it would be good to preserve
  >   within the last 2-3 lines.

I agree.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I think Emacs should emphasize the fact that it's Free rather 
  > > than
  > > gratis and the underlying ideas of freedom and the copyleft 
  > > technique to
  > > enforce it.

  > But is it the right place to do so?

The right place to do this is where the most people will see it.

The ultimate goal of GNU Emacs is not success as such, not "making
good software" as such.  It is victory for freedom.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   > I think Emacs should emphasize the fact that it's Free rather 
   > than
   > gratis and the underlying ideas of freedom and the copyleft 
   > technique to
   > enforce it.

   But is it the right place to do so?

It is one of the first places that a user sees, making users aware of
computer freedom is probobly the most important thing GNU Emacs can do
in grand scheme of things.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

Here is a new mockup:

+——————————––––––––––––––––––––––––––––————————————————————+
|                                                          |
|                                                          |
|                                                          |
|                                                          |
|                                                          |
|                                                          |
|                       www.gnu.org                        |
|                  GNU Emacs version XX.Y                  |
|                  Free/libre text editor                  |
|                                                          |
|                                                          |
|                                                          |
|                                                          |
|        GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY       |
|     Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.    |
|                                                          |
+––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––————————————————————+

Any key but <escape>, <space>, <return>, "q", "x" will open
the about-emacs page.

Nicolas

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Philip K.]

"Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr> writes:

> Here is a new mockup:
>
> +——————————––––––––––––––––––––––––––––————————————————————+
> |                                                          |
> |                                                          |
> |                                                          |
> |                                                          |
> |                                                          |
> |                                                          |
> |                       www.gnu.org                        |

Why www.gnu.org and not https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/?

> |                  GNU Emacs version XX.Y                  |
> |                  Free/libre text editor                  |
> |                                                          |
> |                                                          |
> |                                                          |
> |                                                          |
> |        GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY       |
> |     Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.    |
> |                                                          |
> +––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––————————————————————+
>
> Any key but <escape>, <space>, <return>, "q", "x" will open
> the about-emacs page.

Shouldn't that be mentioned? Or at least how to close the splash screen?
Wouldn't it make more sense that most keys kill or bury the buffer?

Also, what happens when you invoke Emacs in the shell like

      $ emacs myfile.c

how will the splash screen then behave?

-- 
	Philip K.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

Philip K. <philipk@posteo.net> writes:


> Why www.gnu.org and not https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/?

I think it's much easier to remember www.gnu.org rather than 
www.gnu.org/software/emacs/. Once on www.gnu.org, it is easy to 
find emacs.
Also, from a purely aesthetic point of view, www.gnu.org fits 
better.

>> Any key but <escape>, <space>, <return>, "q", "x" will open
>> the about-emacs page.
> Shouldn't that be mentioned? Or at least how to close the splash 
> screen?
> Wouldn't it make more sense that most keys kill or bury the 
> buffer?

The default behavior is to fall back to the about-emacs page since 
we can suspect a more experienced user would disable this 
splash-screen anyway. There's also an idle timer (5 seconds) that 
open the about-emacs buffer.

> Also, what happens when you invoke Emacs in the shell like
>       $ emacs myfile.c
> how will the splash screen then behave?

In such case, splash screen is not shown (modulor errors in my 
code).

Nicolas

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

I really want to like this, it looks nice -- though I miss the
graphics.  But it is lacking the usefulness, and direction of the
original.  A new user would be totally lost as to what one would do,
reminiscant of the way vi starts up with nothing other than beeps.

Also, where would the information about recovering files be shown?

What about do you think about this?  

While I think the visit new file "link" is useful, I think it would be
good to keep the menu bar shown when the splash screen is shown, since
most users would be familiar with the File menu and want to open a
file that way.


+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
			      GNU Emacs
				 26.3
			   is free software
				 and
		   part of the GNU operating system

			       Tutorial
				Manual

	      If an Emacs session crashed recently, type
		       M-x recover-session RET
		to recover the files you were editing.

	     GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
	  Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

Thanks to your message I just realized that I made some confusion 
between the actual startup page and the about-emacs page that are 
similar yet different (for me they were the same since I disabled 
the startup screen a long time ago and never really read it). I 
also realized the startup page in graphical (emacs -q) and 
terminal mode (emacs -q -nw) are also different on my system for 
some unknown reason to me. In my case, only the terminal version 
display some useful key bindings.

Initially, my idea was to have a transient splash screen that can 
be bypassed by an experienced user but leads automatically to the 
startup screen for a new user where useful information is 
displayed. Now I've a problem because it's not clear how to show 
the initial startup screen;

Nicolas

Alfred M. Szmidt <ams@gnu.org> writes:

> I really want to like this, it looks nice -- though I miss the
> graphics.  But it is lacking the usefulness, and direction of 
> the
> original.  A new user would be totally lost as to what one would 
> do,
> reminiscant of the way vi starts up with nothing other than 
> beeps.
>
> Also, where would the information about recovering files be 
> shown?
>
> What about do you think about this?  
>
> While I think the visit new file "link" is useful, I think it 
> would be
> good to keep the menu bar shown when the splash screen is shown, 
> since
> most users would be familiar with the File menu and want to open 
> a
> file that way.
>
>
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> 			      GNU Emacs
> 				 26.3
> 			   is free software
> 				 and
> 		   part of the GNU operating system
>
> 			       Tutorial
> 				Manual
>
> 	      If an Emacs session crashed recently, type
> 		       M-x recover-session RET
> 		to recover the files you were editing.
>
> 	     GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
> 	  Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
> +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Stefan Monnier]

> Any key but <escape>, <space>, <return>, "q", "x" will open
> the about-emacs page.

Clever.  That lets you keep it really minimal yet show more info in the
About-Emacs for the beginner who likely won't know to hit ESC.
I'd be tempted to reduce this set of keys to just ESC.


        Stefan

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Thibaut Verron]

> Clever.  That lets you keep it really minimal yet show more info in the
> About-Emacs for the beginner who likely won't know to hit ESC.
> I'd be tempted to reduce this set of keys to just ESC.

I agree to remove space and return from the list.

For me, q is the natural key to hide a buffer after it's filled its
purpose. Then comes C-g if somehow q doesn't work, and only then comes
Esc Esc Esc.

So I'd recommend keeping at least q for experienced users.

I don't think I use any software or emacs package where I need to
press x to quit, so I don't have any opinion on that one.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Philip K.]

-- 
	Philip K.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Philip K.]

"Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr> writes:

> Philip K. <philipk@posteo.net> writes:
>
>
>> Why www.gnu.org and not https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/?
>
> I think it's much easier to remember www.gnu.org rather than 
> www.gnu.org/software/emacs/. Once on www.gnu.org, it is easy to 
> find emacs.
> Also, from a purely aesthetic point of view, www.gnu.org fits 
> better.

So how about "www.gnu.org/s/emacs" or "gnu.org/s/emacs"?

>>> Any key but <escape>, <space>, <return>, "q", "x" will open
>>> the about-emacs page.
>> Shouldn't that be mentioned? Or at least how to close the splash 
>> screen?
>> Wouldn't it make more sense that most keys kill or bury the 
>> buffer?
>
> The default behavior is to fall back to the about-emacs page since 
> we can suspect a more experienced user would disable this 
> splash-screen anyway. There's also an idle timer (5 seconds) that 
> open the about-emacs buffer.

So what's the point then? As far as I understand, this is supposed to be
an ELPA package, but my understanding of splash screens is that they are
displayed while an application is loading, to ensure the user that
something is being done, or the computer didn't freeze. A spash-screen
for the sake of it seems counter-intuitive, or am I missing something?

-- 
	Philip K.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

> So how about "www.gnu.org/s/emacs" or "gnu.org/s/emacs"?

Thanks, didn't know this shortcut. This way I can split the link 
in "gnu.org" (for www.gnu.org) and "emacs" (for 
www.gnu.org/software/emacs) and leave the "/s/" inert.

> So what's the point then? As far as I understand, this is 
> supposed to be
> an ELPA package, but my understanding of splash screens is that 
> they are
> displayed while an application is loading, to ensure the user 
> that
> something is being done, or the computer didn't freeze. A 
> spash-screen
> for the sake of it seems counter-intuitive, or am I missing 
> something?

It is indeed mostly a cosmetic package to give user the choice of 
an alternative
startup screen.

Nicolas

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

"Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr> writes:

> Here is a mockup:

What about if we just have an animated GIF as the splash screen?  For
instance https://i.chzbgr.com/full/9551293696/hE9D67F18/cat.


[...]

> |           GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY          |

Surely this line can go.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > |           GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY          |

  > Surely this line can go.

We need to preserve that line, and the copyright and license, due to
legal concerns.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Stefan Monnier]

>   > > |           GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY          |
>   > Surely this line can go.
> We need to preserve that line, and the copyright and license, due to
> legal concerns.

Why?  I can't think of a single other program which displays such things
in its startup/splash screen.


        Stefan

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Mathias Dahl]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 618 bytes --]

>
> > We need to preserve that line, and the copyright and license, due to
> > legal concerns.
>
> Why?  I can't think of a single other program which displays such things
> in its startup/splash screen.
>

Agree.

"Legal people" don't seem to have problems hiding things in hard-to-find
places ("make sure to read the small print", etc), so shouldn't the fact
that this information is already there under the Help menu be enough to
make them happy/have Emacs or GNU stay out of trouble? Or can we have it in
a smaller font (I know, it will not help in the terminal). Or shorten it
("Warranty") and make it clickable.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 943 bytes --]

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > > |           GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY          |
>
>   > Surely this line can go.
>
> We need to preserve that line, and the copyright and license, due to
> legal concerns.

If FSF's legal counsel says that this magical phrase has to be on the
Emacs splash screen...  then perhaps it's time for the FSF to get new
legal counsel?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

If the FSF requires or wants such a small sentence, it doesn't hurt to
have it.  And there is definitly no reason to ask them to get new legal
counsel because of such a simple and easy thing.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

Alfred M. Szmidt <ams@gnu.org> writes:

> If the FSF requires or wants such a small sentence, it doesn't 
> hurt to
> have it.  And there is definitly no reason to ask them to get 
> new legal
> counsel because of such a simple and easy thing.

Current design is 3 short lines in the middle, 2 long lines at the 
bottom. Without the warranty line, it could be 2 short lines in 
the middle and one long line at the bottom (to keep a balanced 
visual) and would be both less intrusive and more salient.

Nicolas

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

All GNU programs that have a splash screen should include
the copyright, license notice, and no warranty notice in it.
If you notice any exceptions, would you please tell me?
I will politely remind the maintainers of the importance of
doing this.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > If FSF's legal counsel says that this magical phrase has to be on the
  > Emacs splash screen...  then perhaps it's time for the FSF to get new
  > legal counsel?

It is not "magical".  It is information we want users to know,
so we show it to them.

Part of the reason we want them to know it is legal.  Part of it
is to soread awareness of the FSF and the GNU GPL.  This is important.
So we will keep this information in the splash screen.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Stefan Monnier]

> It is not "magical".  It is information we want users to know,
> so we show it to them.

I fully agree with it when it comes to the product being under
a copyleft license, but I do not understand why we particularly want
people to know it is distributed with "absolutely no warranty".

AFAIK all the software I've ever seen came with "absolutely no
warranty".  That applies to proprietary software just as much as
Free Software.  So what do we have to gain by promoting this
"characteristic" of Emacs?

> Part of the reason we want them to know it is legal.

That's a part of the argument I do not understand and would like to
see developed.

> Part of it is to soread awareness of the FSF and the GNU GPL.

And what does "absolutely no warranty" have to do with the FSF and
the GPL?


        Stefan

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

> All GNU programs that have a splash screen should include
> the copyright, license notice, and no warranty notice in it.
> If you notice any exceptions, would you please tell me?
> I will politely remind the maintainers of the importance of
> doing this.

From what I've understood of the reference below [1], I think it
implies that warranty should be conspicuously written:

 "U.C.C. Section 2-316 prescribes certain procedures that vendors
  must follow to disclaim implied warranties: disclaimers must be
  conspicuous; they may not conflict with express warranties; and
  they must use prescribed language."

I'll put back the warranty notice.

Nicolas

[1] Robert W. Gomulkiewicz, The Implied Warranty of 
Merchantability
    in Software Contracts: A Warranty No One Dares to Give and How
    to Change That, 16 J. Marshall J. Computer & Info. L. 393 
    (1998)
    http://repository.jmls.edu/jitpl/vol16/iss2/6

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > If FSF's legal counsel says that this magical phrase has to be on the
>   > Emacs splash screen...  then perhaps it's time for the FSF to get new
>   > legal counsel?
>
> It is not "magical".  It is information we want users to know,
> so we show it to them.
>
> Part of the reason we want them to know it is legal.  Part of it
> is to soread awareness of the FSF and the GNU GPL.  This is important.

So shouting a long sentence about "NO WARRANTY" towards all users is not
something the FSF's legal counsel has insisted upon?  Then I retract my
snarky statement about them.

This does not explain why you want this magical, nonsensical phrase to
appear on the Emacs splash screen, though.  How does the phrase lead to
awareness about the FSF and the GNU GPL?

> So we will keep this information in the splash screen.

That's very autocratic of you, I'm sure.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > So shouting a long sentence about "NO WARRANTY" towards all users is not
  > something the FSF's legal counsel has insisted upon?

He urged us to do it, and that was enough reason for me to decide that
we will do as he recommended.

If there is an important reason to change it, I will consult again.
But that would take considerable time and effort, and so far I have
not seen an important reason to change it.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I'll put back the warranty notice.

Thank you.

And thanks for finding that explanation of why that notice is
important.  I would not have known how to find it, or even thought of
looking for it.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > So shouting a long sentence about "NO WARRANTY" towards all users is not
>   > something the FSF's legal counsel has insisted upon?
>
> He urged us to do it, and that was enough reason for me to decide that
> we will do as he recommended.

Then I retract my retraction of my snarky comment.

> If there is an important reason to change it, I will consult again.
> But that would take considerable time and effort, and so far I have
> not seen an important reason to change it.

Shouting magical phrases at users is one of the things that makes the
FSF look quaint and out of touch.

Nobody else does the NO WARRANTY splash screen thing.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Thibaut Verron]

> > If there is an important reason to change it, I will consult again.
> > But that would take considerable time and effort, and so far I have
> > not seen an important reason to change it.
>
> Shouting magical phrases at users is one of the things that makes the
> FSF look quaint and out of touch.
>
> Nobody else does the NO WARRANTY splash screen thing.

I just did a quick and non-exhaustive survey with some GNU software
which are installed on this computer.

Screen does show the NO WARRANTY line on its splash screen, with the
option to turn the message off (like emacs).

Wget, tar and bazaar do show it when called with --version, but not
when called normally or with no arguments or in their man page. Bazaar
does mention the FSF goal in its man page.

I am using Gnome Shell on this computer and I don't recall ever seeing
the NO WARRANTY line. It is not in the first screen of gnome-help.
I tried a few gnome- programs with --version, without seeing it there either.

Non GNU software such as Firefox or Libreoffice do not appear to
mention it, including in the "about" window.

Actively searching for the complete EULA of Firefox gives this page:
https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/legal/terms/firefox/ which does
mention no warranty (in bold, not in capitals) for the Firefox Web
Services, and apparently not for the software. The software is
distributed under the Mozilla Public License, and this licence
(accessible after two more clicks from the previous page) mentions
that there is no warranty (highlighted yellow, Paragraph 6).

The license of Libreoffice is the same MPL, offered here:
https://www.libreoffice.org/about-us/licenses
"No warranty" is still Paragraph 6, without any highlighting.

If that presentation is sufficient for the legal counsel of the
Mozilla Foundation and The Document Foundation, could a "licensing
information" link on the splash screen be enough to C the FSF's A?

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Shouting magical phrases at users is one of the things that makes the
  > FSF look quaint and out of touch.

I am sure that isn't a problem big enough to call for omission
of any of the important statements form the splash screen.
But it might suggest doing more to explain to the users why those
statements are needed there.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 25.09.2020 07:38, Richard Stallman wrote:
> If there is an important reason to change it, I will consult again.
> But that would take considerable time and effort, and so far I have
> not seen an important reason to change it.

One would think that being told again and again, by various people 
including a current and former Emacs maintainer, that it is an 
unnecessary nuisance, would be such reason.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   On 25.09.2020 07:38, Richard Stallman wrote:
   > If there is an important reason to change it, I will consult again.
   > But that would take considerable time and effort, and so far I have
   > not seen an important reason to change it.

   One would think that being told again and again, by various people 
   including a current and former Emacs maintainer, that it is an 
   unnecessary nuisance, would be such reason.

Emacs maintainers aren't legal exprts, so they are not the best to
decide if it is unnecessary or not, so one would think that being told
again and again that this is the advice by the FSF that is agood
enough reason to keep such a notice...

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: ams@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt)
> Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 05:45:11 -0400
> Cc: larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, nicolas.rougier@inria.fr
> 
>    On 25.09.2020 07:38, Richard Stallman wrote:
>    > If there is an important reason to change it, I will consult again.
>    > But that would take considerable time and effort, and so far I have
>    > not seen an important reason to change it.
> 
>    One would think that being told again and again, by various people 
>    including a current and former Emacs maintainer, that it is an 
>    unnecessary nuisance, would be such reason.
> 
> Emacs maintainers aren't legal exprts, so they are not the best to
> decide if it is unnecessary or not

This is not about making a decision based on what the maintainers say,
this is about consulting with legal experts based on what they say.
IOW, the issue is whether what the maintainers say is a reason
important enough to consult with legal experts about this.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > Shouting magical phrases at users is one of the things that makes the
>   > FSF look quaint and out of touch.
>
> I am sure that isn't a problem big enough to call for omission
> of any of the important statements form the splash screen.
> But it might suggest doing more to explain to the users why those
> statements are needed there.

But they aren't needed, according to every other software organisation
in the world.

Is your stance that all the other orgs just doesn't have as good legal
counsel as the FSF, and the FSF therefore knows something that nobody
else does?  I guess it's possible?  But it's unlikely.

Open any other (non-GNU) program, free or non-free, and nobody will be
shouting at you ABOUT THERE BEING NO WARRANTY.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

RE: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Drew Adams]

> One would think that being told again and again, by various people
> including a current and former Emacs maintainer, that it is an
> unnecessary nuisance, would be such reason.

Emacs might be considered an unnecessary nuisance.
Beloved by millions.  Likewise love, art, music,
and nearly anything wonderful. ;-)

 "The report of my death was an exaggeration."
   - Emacs, as recounted by Mark Twain

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > But they aren't needed, according to every other software organisation
  > in the world.

All we know is that some organizations don't present no-warranty notices.
We don't know whether it was a thought-out decision.  If it was, we don't
know what their reasons were.  No conclusion can be draen.

  > Open any other (non-GNU) program, free or non-free, and nobody will be
  > shouting at you ABOUT THERE BEING NO WARRANTY.

Displaying text on the screen is not shouting.  I see you have strong
feelings about those words on the screen, but I don't see any real
problem in them.  No real reason to remove them.

If they were of no importance, I'd say, "Ok, delete them if you like."
Because it would not be worth arguing about.

But they are important -- and Nicolas Rougier posted the reason why.
This is a GNU Project policy decision, and "I hate the capital
letters" is not an argument for changing deleting them.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > One would think that being told again and again, by various people 
  > including a current and former Emacs maintainer, that it is an 
  > unnecessary nuisance, would be such reason.

Those are opinions, but they are not a rational reason.
These lines are important; to delete them would require
an important reason, and so far no one has shown me any reason,
only opinions.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 27.09.2020 05:45, Richard Stallman wrote:
>    > One would think that being told again and again, by various people
>    > including a current and former Emacs maintainer, that it is an
>    > unnecessary nuisance, would be such reason.
> 
> Those are opinions, but they are not a rational reason.
> These lines are important; to delete them would require
> an important reason, and so far no one has shown me any reason,
> only opinions.

People have produced evidence that _nobody else_ except GNU shows these 
lines as prominently.

Including major corporations with much higher budgets than FSF, who 
might have a lot more to fear/lose from being maliciously sued for 
"breach of warranty".

Perhaps these lines were more important once, but if so, apparently the 
law standards and practice in this area have changed since.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   >    > One would think that being told again and again, by various people
   >    > including a current and former Emacs maintainer, that it is an
   >    > unnecessary nuisance, would be such reason.
   > 
   > Those are opinions, but they are not a rational reason.
   > These lines are important; to delete them would require
   > an important reason, and so far no one has shown me any reason,
   > only opinions.

   People have produced evidence that _nobody else_ except GNU shows these 
   lines as prominently.

That is quite the exaggeration.  You showed that some programs don't
show it, that is far from "nobody else".  But that also doesn't
matter, since nobody else implements Emacs either so by similar logic
we should stop that

What everyone does or doesn't do is never a good critera to copy
blindly.  Doing things differently is perfectly fine.

   Including major corporations with much higher budgets than FSF, who 
   might have a lot more to fear/lose from being maliciously sued for 
   "breach of warranty".

Good reason to be extra careful, since the FSF doesn't have as much
legal heft behind them as those with much higher budgets.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Thibaut Verron]

Le dim. 27 sept. 2020 à 04:46, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> a écrit :
>   > Open any other (non-GNU) program, free or non-free, and nobody will be
>   > shouting at you ABOUT THERE BEING NO WARRANTY.
>
> Displaying text on the screen is not shouting.  I see you have strong
> feelings about those words on the screen, but I don't see any real
> problem in them.  No real reason to remove them.

Displaying text in all capitals is commonly understood as shouting.
According to Wikipedia, this association dates at least back to 1856.

I understand that it is the only option on pure text tty's, but a lot
of terminals nowadays have other options for emphasis, for example
bold font or color. Is there a law or judicial precedent stipulating
that such a text has to be in all capitals to be binding?

Do you maybe remember when was the last time the FSF's counsel
reiterated that advice?

I'm particularly perplexed at the example of Gnome, which, as far as I
can remember, never shot any such message to my face.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Thibaut Verron]

Le dim. 27 sept. 2020 à 10:35, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> a écrit :
>
> On 27.09.2020 05:45, Richard Stallman wrote:
> >    > One would think that being told again and again, by various people
> >    > including a current and former Emacs maintainer, that it is an
> >    > unnecessary nuisance, would be such reason.
> >
> > Those are opinions, but they are not a rational reason.
> > These lines are important; to delete them would require
> > an important reason, and so far no one has shown me any reason,
> > only opinions.
>
> People have produced evidence that _nobody else_ except GNU shows these
> lines as prominently.

In my modest survey, it was even _including_ some GNU programs. Some
show it if the user requests it with --version, some I could not find
it at all.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 10:54:28 +0200
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>,
>  "Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr>,
>  emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> Le dim. 27 sept. 2020 à 04:46, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> a écrit :
> >   > Open any other (non-GNU) program, free or non-free, and nobody will be
> >   > shouting at you ABOUT THERE BEING NO WARRANTY.
> >
> > Displaying text on the screen is not shouting.  I see you have strong
> > feelings about those words on the screen, but I don't see any real
> > problem in them.  No real reason to remove them.
> 
> Displaying text in all capitals is commonly understood as shouting.
> According to Wikipedia, this association dates at least back to 1856.

Every software license and EULA text I've ever seen, including the
ones I've read a few days ago, always shows the "DISCLAIMER OF
WARRANTY" part in all-caps.  So this seems to be common practice, and
Emacs is not different here from any other software.

Whether we should show it or not is a separate question, but let's not
muddy the waters by creating tangents that don't add anything useful
to this discussion.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 10:56:00 +0200
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>, emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,
>  Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>,
>  "Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr>
> 
> In my modest survey, it was even _including_ some GNU programs. Some
> show it if the user requests it with --version, some I could not find
> it at all.

On my system, latest versions of GDB, GCC, and Binutils programs all
show this in their "--version" output, which is the equivalent of the
Emacs splash screen (since Emacs is primarily an interactive GUI/TUI
program, not a console application).

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Thibaut Verron]

Le dim. 27 sept. 2020 à 11:42, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> a écrit :
>
> > From: Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com>
> > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 10:54:28 +0200
> > Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>,
> >  "Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr>,
> >  emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> >
> > Le dim. 27 sept. 2020 à 04:46, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> a écrit :
> > >   > Open any other (non-GNU) program, free or non-free, and nobody will be
> > >   > shouting at you ABOUT THERE BEING NO WARRANTY.
> > >
> > > Displaying text on the screen is not shouting.  I see you have strong
> > > feelings about those words on the screen, but I don't see any real
> > > problem in them.  No real reason to remove them.
> >
> > Displaying text in all capitals is commonly understood as shouting.
> > According to Wikipedia, this association dates at least back to 1856.
>
> Every software license and EULA text I've ever seen, including the
> ones I've read a few days ago, always shows the "DISCLAIMER OF
> WARRANTY" part in all-caps.  So this seems to be common practice, and
> Emacs is not different here from any other software.

Firefox does it with a yellow background. Firefox web services does it
in bold. Libreoffice does it with no highlighting whatsoever. All of
those are clear, non-aggressive, marks of emphasis.

> Whether we should show it or not is a separate question, but let's not
> muddy the waters by creating tangents that don't add anything useful
> to this discussion.

I don't agree that it's a tangent. Emacs shows it "first thing you
see", in all caps. Other software require either clicking one's way to
the EULA, or requesting this info with --version.
And software which display it outside of a terminal tend to follow
standard typographical practices when doing so. (Yes, bold is also
discouraged as a marker of emphasis, but it is very commonly used for
that purpose.)

If the topic is to be brought to the FSF's counsel again, why not
request updated advice on all aspects of the issue?

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 27.09.2020 12:47, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> On my system, latest versions of GDB, GCC, and Binutils programs all
> show this in their "--version" output, which is the equivalent of the
> Emacs splash screen (since Emacs is primarily an interactive GUI/TUI
> program, not a console application).

I would argue that "--version" corresponds to our "About" screen. As it 
is also for most other graphical applications. Many of them don't have 
any splash screen to begin with.

Our splash screen should be more comparable to launching GCC or GDB with 
no arguments. When one does that, GDB does print the "NO WARRANTY" 
message, and GCC does not.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 11:56:34 +0200
> Cc: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>, 
> 	"Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr>,
	emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> > Whether we should show it or not is a separate question, but let's not
> > muddy the waters by creating tangents that don't add anything useful
> > to this discussion.
> 
> I don't agree that it's a tangent. Emacs shows it "first thing you
> see", in all caps. Other software require either clicking one's way to
> the EULA, or requesting this info with --version.

Some software does what you describe.  Others display the EULA
_first_, and won't even let you see the real program's display until
and unless you click on "agree".  (Still others are even nastier: they
show in small print, or momentarily display, something to the effect
that "by using this you agree to ...".)

> And software which display it outside of a terminal tend to follow
> standard typographical practices when doing so. (Yes, bold is also
> discouraged as a marker of emphasis, but it is very commonly used for
> that purpose.)

I see all-caps in GUI applications as well.

> If the topic is to be brought to the FSF's counsel again, why not
> request updated advice on all aspects of the issue?

Sure, why not?  But let's not maintain the position that Emacs is the
odd one out here; it's not.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Thibaut Verron]

> > I don't agree that it's a tangent. Emacs shows it "first thing you
> > see", in all caps. Other software require either clicking one's way to
> > the EULA, or requesting this info with --version.
>
> Some software does what you describe.  Others display the EULA
> _first_, and won't even let you see the real program's display until
> and unless you click on "agree".  (Still others are even nastier: they
> show in small print, or momentarily display, something to the effect
> that "by using this you agree to ...".)

For the record, I was only looking at examples within free software.

It is my impression that most non-free software show and request
approval of the EULA at the time of installing.

Of course, I agree that we should not take non-free software's example
seriously. The question is not whether we should deceive the users (we
shouldn't), it's whether showing this information so prominently to
users who are not asking for it is necessary.

> > And software which display it outside of a terminal tend to follow
> > standard typographical practices when doing so. (Yes, bold is also
> > discouraged as a marker of emphasis, but it is very commonly used for
> > that purpose.)
>
> I see all-caps in GUI applications as well.

Assuming that you mean free software, do you have examples?

> Sure, why not?  But let's not maintain the position that Emacs is the
> odd one out here; it's not.

It might not be alone (Screen is another example), but so far it seems
far from being a majority. Even more so if we restrict to GUI
applications.

A lot of the discussion so far has been whether it is worth it to ask
the FSF's counsel for updated advice, valid in the ecosystem and legal
environment of 2020.

If we deny the fact that several major free software organizations
have chosen to display the warranty disclaimer only in their EULA, and
(pending on examples) with friendlier typography than all-caps, yes,
there is indeed little reason for asking for that update.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1617 bytes --]


Latest mockup:

+———————––––––––––––––––––––––––––––——————————————————+
|                                                     |
|                                                     |
|                                                     |
|                                                     |
|                    www.gnu.org                      |
|               GNU Emacs version XX.Y                |
|                                                     |
|                                                     |
|                                                     |
|     GNU Emacs comes with absolutely no warranty     |
|  Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.  |
|                                                     |
+–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––——————————————————+

www.gnu.org:
 - link    : https://www.gnu.org/philosophy
 - tooltip : Read about GNU philosophy

GNU Emacs comes with absolutely no warranty
 - link    : 'describe-no-warranty
 - tooltip : Read warranty notice

Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
 - link    : 'describe-copying
 - tooltip : Read copying conditions

Return, escape or q kills splash
Any other key shows 'about-emacs
Splash stays for 10 seconds and fade to 'about-emacs.

Bug: Mouse click doesn't work properly since I bound [t] (any key) 
and I'm unable to bind mouse keys after that.


[-- Attachment #2: Splash Screen code --]
[-- Type: application/emacs-lisp, Size: 9300 bytes --]

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 12:34:44 +0200
> Cc: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>, 
> 	"Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr>, emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> Of course, I agree that we should not take non-free software's example
> seriously.

I don't think this distinction is relevant when talking about legal
issues.  The GPL is not a revolt against the copyright laws, it uses
those laws to the benefit of the Free Software.  Therefore, relevant
legal practices, even if used by non-free software, are not to be
dismissed so easily.

> > I see all-caps in GUI applications as well.
> 
> Assuming that you mean free software, do you have examples?

Any program that shows the MIT license will display that part in
all-caps.  (And, as I wrote above, I don't think whether the software
is free or not is important here.)

> A lot of the discussion so far has been whether it is worth it to ask
> the FSF's counsel for updated advice, valid in the ecosystem and legal
> environment of 2020.

I never said I'm against asking their counsel.  Please don't treat
factual corrections of part of what you say to mean that I reject
_everything_ that you say.  Agreement doesn't have to be total; that's
a common fallacy ("you are either with us or against us") in this
divided world nowadays.

> If we deny the fact that several major free software organizations
> have chosen to display the warranty disclaimer only in their EULA

I didn't deny that, so your arguments should be directed at someone
else.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Thibaut Verron]

Le dim. 27 sept. 2020 à 12:50, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> a écrit :
>
> > From: Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com>
> > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 12:34:44 +0200
> > Cc: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>,
> >       "Nicolas P. Rougier" <nicolas.rougier@inria.fr>, emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> >
> > Of course, I agree that we should not take non-free software's example
> > seriously.
>
> I don't think this distinction is relevant when talking about legal
> issues.  The GPL is not a revolt against the copyright laws, it uses
> those laws to the benefit of the Free Software.  Therefore, relevant
> legal practices, even if used by non-free software, are not to be
> dismissed so easily.

I agree. My point was that some non-free software and services tend to
have EULAs which users would not agree to if they were to read them.
Such software actively discourage users from reading their EULA,
sometimes with a creative interpretation of the law. Your example of
small prints falls into that category.

>
> > > I see all-caps in GUI applications as well.
> >
> > Assuming that you mean free software, do you have examples?
>
> Any program that shows the MIT license will display that part in
> all-caps.  (And, as I wrote above, I don't think whether the software
> is free or not is important here.)

Thanks. It looks like there is a bit of flexibility (for instance,
jquery links to https://tldrlegal.com/license/mit-license which shows
a summary without caps first), but those are good examples to keep in
mind.

>
> > A lot of the discussion so far has been whether it is worth it to ask
> > the FSF's counsel for updated advice, valid in the ecosystem and legal
> > environment of 2020.
>
> I never said I'm against asking their counsel.  Please don't treat
> factual corrections of part of what you say to mean that I reject
> _everything_ that you say.  Agreement doesn't have to be total; that's
> a common fallacy ("you are either with us or against us") in this
> divided world nowadays.
>
> > If we deny the fact that several major free software organizations
> > have chosen to display the warranty disclaimer only in their EULA
>
> I didn't deny that, so your arguments should be directed at someone
> else.

Sorry, those were not meant specifically for you. It was my
understanding that the whole discussion about "other software" was
coming from whether there is sufficient reason to ask for renewed
advice.

What I was trying to say was a generic point, that even if Emacs is
not alone in displaying the warranty disclaimer so prominently, in my
opinion there are enough examples of the contrary to justify this
query.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com> writes:

> What I was trying to say was a generic point, that even if Emacs is
> not alone in displaying the warranty disclaimer so prominently, in my
> opinion there are enough examples of the contrary to justify this
> query.

Indeed.  Thanks for doing the research here.

I think perhaps Richard is the only one who argues against querying
counsel about this issue?  Perhaps we should get in touch with somebody
who's at the FSF; it's ultimately their decision.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Jean Louis]

Not to list as not to raise upsets.

Emacs is GNU project, FSF does not control it even if copyrights may be assigned.

That is what I know.


On September 27, 2020 11:52:42 AM UTC, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:
>Thibaut Verron <thibaut.verron@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> What I was trying to say was a generic point, that even if Emacs is
>> not alone in displaying the warranty disclaimer so prominently, in my
>> opinion there are enough examples of the contrary to justify this
>> query.
>
>Indeed.  Thanks for doing the research here.
>
>I think perhaps Richard is the only one who argues against querying
>counsel about this issue?  Perhaps we should get in touch with somebody
>who's at the FSF; it's ultimately their decision.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

Nice work.  Overall, I kinda like it, and the behaviour, I think.  I
do find the idea of the splash screen slightly strange, since it
doesn't really add anything... But that is just me.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   > On my system, latest versions of GDB, GCC, and Binutils programs all
   > show this in their "--version" output, which is the equivalent of the
   > Emacs splash screen (since Emacs is primarily an interactive GUI/TUI
   > program, not a console application).

   I would argue that "--version" corresponds to our "About" screen. As it 
   is also for most other graphical applications. Many of them don't have 
   any splash screen to begin with.

   Our splash screen should be more comparable to launching GCC or GDB with 
   no arguments. When one does that, GDB does print the "NO WARRANTY" 
   message, and GCC does not.

Because GDB is an interactive program, and GCC is not.  Our practise
is to have the no warranty screen display in --version output, and if
the program is interactive when that starts.

I'll submit a patch for the GNU Coding standards to amend so that
interactive programs are explicitly mentioned.  Seeing we already do
this for such cases, it would be mostly documenting existing practise.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Stefan Monnier]

> Firefox does it with a yellow background.  Firefox web services does it
> in bold.  Libreoffice does it with no highlighting whatsoever.

Where/when do LibreOffice and Firefox display such a thing?

> I don't agree that it's a tangent. Emacs shows it "first thing you
> see", in all caps. Other software require either clicking one's way to
> the EULA, or requesting this info with --version.

Right.  That's the issue for me: the real estate of the "splash screen"
shouldn't be wasted on such information, especially since some could
read as "Oh, please take into account that we're so especially buggy
that we need to warn you first thing".


        Stefan

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Stefan Monnier]

> Those are opinions, but they are not a rational reason.

They may not be rational reasons to remove the text, but they are very
much rational reasons to take a fresh new look at the reasons for the
presence of this text.

> These lines are important;

So you say, but apparently all other Free Software projects disagree.

And while proprietary software does show similar text it's dutifully
downed within the many lines of text of the EULA that the corporation
hopes you'll never read, whereas you seem to think we should make
special efforts to make sure the reader reads it.  This seems to
indicate that even proprietary software's corporations also disagree.

So is it really that important?  And if so, why does everyone else seem
to disagree?

> to delete them would require an important reason, and so far no one
> has shown me any reason, only opinions.

It doesn't have to be a super-important reason, as long as it's more
important than the reason to have those lines there, which also boils
down to an opinion.

I do think it's important to have such a text somewhere, but AFAICT it's
perfectly sufficient to have it in the license's text.


        Stefan

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

What you've done is elegant, but please add one more line about the
license:

   Released under GNU General Public License version 4 or later


    www.gnu.org:
     - link    : https://www.gnu.org/philosophy
     - tooltip : Read about GNU philosophy

    GNU Emacs comes with absolutely no warranty
     - link    : 'describe-no-warranty
     - tooltip : Read warranty notice

    Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
     - link    : 'describe-copying
     - tooltip : Read copying conditions

Those are ok.  The license line should have the same link
as the copyright notice.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I understand that it is the only option on pure text tty's, but a lot
  > of terminals nowadays have other options for emphasis, for example
  > bold font or color. Is there a law or judicial precedent stipulating
  > that such a text has to be in all capitals to be binding?

I do not know.

Is there a problem here that is important enough for me to spend
perhaps hours dealing with it?  I don't see one.  It seems like a fuss
about a trifle.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Nicolas P. Rougier]

> What you've done is elegant, but please add one more line about 
> the
> license:
>
>    Released under GNU General Public License version 4 or later

I imagine you meant version 3?
Note that the default startup screen does not contain this line. 

Nicolas


emacs -q -nw:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to GNU Emacs, a part of the GNU operating system.

Get help           C-h  (Hold down CTRL and press h)
Emacs manual       C-h r        Browse manuals     C-h i
Emacs tutorial     C-h t        Undo changes       C-x u
Buy manuals        C-h RET      Exit Emacs         C-x C-c
Activate menubar   M-`
(‘C-’ means use the CTRL key.  ‘M-’ means use the Meta (or Alt) 
key.
If you have no Meta key, you may instead type ESC followed by the 
character.)
Useful tasks:
Visit New File                  Open Home Directory
Customize Startup               Open *scratch* buffer

GNU Emacs 27.1 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin19.6.0, Carbon Version 
162 AppKit 1894\
.6)
 of 2020-08-14
Copyright (C) 2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY; type C-h C-w for full 
details.
Emacs is Free Software--Free as in Freedom--so you can 
redistribute copies
of Emacs and modify it; type C-h C-c to see the conditions.
Type C-h C-o for information on getting the latest version.

If an Emacs session crashed recently, type M-x recover-session RET
to recover the files you were editing.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> Is there a problem here that is important enough for me to spend
> perhaps hours dealing with it?  I don't see one.  It seems like a fuss
> about a trifle.

A trifle that you insist on shouting at anybody who starts Emacs.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   > Is there a problem here that is important enough for me to spend
   > perhaps hours dealing with it?  I don't see one.  It seems like a fuss
   > about a trifle.

   A trifle that you insist on shouting at anybody who starts Emacs.

Richard isn't insisting on that, it is the legal system that requires
that it is "conspicious".  If your only qualm and grievance is that it
is some capitals, it could probobly be made bold in GUI and capitals
in terminal.

Re: [ELPA] New package: splash-screen

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >    Released under GNU General Public License version 4 or later

  > I imagine you meant version 3?

Oops.  Yes, I did.

  > Note that the default startup screen does not contain this line. 

It has something slightly different which states the same point:

    Emacs is Free Software--Free as in Freedom--so you can 
    redistribute copies
    of Emacs and modify it; type C-h C-c to see the conditions.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)