From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rob Browning Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 14:27:05 -0500 Message-ID: <87mtbx75yu.fsf@trouble.defaultvalue.org> References: <87ilmlluxq.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <87ilmlluxq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h725olz1.fsf@gnus.org> <87zgfxn6lt.fsf@gnus.org> <87tu65k9ec.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r119lnsd.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtbxlnf1.fsf@gnus.org> <87czctk890.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a67xlm9v.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtbxiswr.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34430"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier , Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Aug 21 21:28:10 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oPqcC-0008hK-3m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 21:28:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49494 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oPqcA-0002eM-MS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 15:28:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50444) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oPqbH-0001yU-0y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 15:27:11 -0400 Original-Received: from defaultvalue.org ([45.33.119.55]:37418) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oPqbE-0002P7-Rm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 15:27:10 -0400 Original-Received: from trouble.defaultvalue.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: rlb@defaultvalue.org) by defaultvalue.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5F0BA20317; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 14:27:06 -0500 (CDT) Original-Received: by trouble.defaultvalue.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id EC8AF14E496; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 14:27:05 -0500 (CDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=45.33.119.55; envelope-from=rlb@defaultvalue.org; helo=defaultvalue.org X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293759 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: > Po Lu [2022-08-21 22:16:04] wrote: >> Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: >>> Most users don't choose the toolkits -- they use whatever the >>> distribution has configured. And since most of those use a variation on >>> Gnome Shell, it's natural for the distributions to use the Gtk toolkit >>> for Emacs. >> Can't we shout at them to do something else? I've seen the Debian Emacs >> packager here somewhere. > > Indeed, Rob does pay attention to what we say. He also has to pay > attention to what other people say. We all think we're right. > > > Stefan "using Emacs with Lucid, mostly" ...for some version of "pay attention". I certainly care, but I'm also often swamped[1], and yes there are competing concerns. For what it's worth, I don't personally have any strong, principled stand regarding what the default toolkit should be right now (via "apt install emacs"). If I recall correctly, I think I may have switched it to gtk years back when it looked like that was the upstream preference. Personally, I haven't installed emacs-gtk much in years. I switched to emacs-lucid nearly exclusively a good while back because I hit the well known X forwarding bugs back when that was important to me. (I also turn off menu/tool/scroll bars, so I don't see a lot of the toolkit-specific bits.) Also for what it's worth, I am definitely inclined to favor upstream preferences (in general) when I know what they are, resources permitting, etc. [1] ...and while I should be subscribed to emacs-devel, I don't read it right now; noticed this thread because someone pinged me. -- Rob Browning rlb @defaultvalue.org and @debian.org GPG as of 2011-07-10 E6A9 DA3C C9FD 1FF8 C676 D2C4 C0F0 39E9 ED1B 597A GPG as of 2002-11-03 14DD 432F AE39 534D B592 F9A0 25C8 D377 8C7E 73A4