From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2022 20:10:16 +0800 Message-ID: <87mtbweaxj.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <87ilmlluxq.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <87ilmlluxq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h725olz1.fsf@gnus.org> <87zgfxn6lt.fsf@gnus.org> <87tu65k9ec.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r119lnsd.fsf@gnus.org> <87mtbxlnf1.fsf@gnus.org> <87czctk890.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a67xlm9v.fsf@gnus.org> <87k070g6l0.fsf@yahoo.com> <8635do4u9b.fsf@gmail.com> <877d30g1az.fsf@yahoo.com> <87czcsfw4v.fsf@djcbsoftware.nl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31809"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Dirk-Jan C. 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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 546327188a230a97aa9c844906bfa944; Mon, 22 Aug 2022 12:10:20 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87czcsfw4v.fsf@djcbsoftware.nl> (Dirk-Jan C. Binnema's message of "Mon, 22 Aug 2022 12:04:11 +0300") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20560 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.191.204; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic312-23.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293794 Archived-At: "Dirk-Jan C. Binnema" writes: > Does this apply to pgtk as well? PGTK has other problems on the input and selection side of things, and shouldn't be used on X at all. Try to select a large chunk of text in the PGTK build running under X (xdisp.c immediately comes to mind), and insert it into another program with Button2. It will immediately crash with an X Windows error. > TBH, this whole thread sounds needlessly alarmist. I'd have said the same until I actually started working on the GTK build, which was in an even worse state several months ago. For example, because many people do not use toolkit widgets in Emacs seriously, and GTK changes too quickly, a bug where moving the mouse wheel on the scroll bar does nothing was not found in time to be fixed in Emacs 28. Seriously, folks, if you don't use the scroll bar enough to find such an obvious bug, you might as well use the a build of Emacs with non-toolkit scroll bars. > The various GTK builds have been working fine for me and apparently the > majority of emacs users on GNU/Linux. "Abysmal" does not describe that > all all. Okay, then please show another build of Emacs where opening Dired on a relatively small frame prints warning messages to stdout, and potentially resizes the frame to fit the menu bar. Or resizing a frame from the top left corner causes the bottom right corner of the frame to lag behind the resize. All of these might seem to be minor nuances, but they leave bad tastes in users mouths. The users then place the blame on us, and ask: "why can't Emacs behave as nicely as other editors?" (The answer is really that the other editors use some other toolkit.) > There have been grumblings about scenarios that GTK doesn't implement > correctly or at all, and there were some big warning for that (there > still may be). It seems we now emacs is adding a new such scenario > (XInput2), while the GTK developers have lost some interest in X11 -- it > seems we should just not enable XInput2 in that case. It seems to me that the same crowd asking for various "modern" GTK features also want features like pixel-scroll-precision-mode and monitor refresh synchronization, which cause crashes or don't work on GTK. We are then blamed for the feature not working there as a result of bugs or misdesigns in GTK. In any case, there is no excuse for GTK to have buggy XInput 2 support, considering that it used to be something that we did not support, requiring various workarounds to explictly disable in GTK, and is mentioned in the first few paragraphs of the GTK+ 2 to 3 migration guidelines. I only found out about this particular crash investigating bug#56879, but there are many more issues, some of which are more insidious than simple crashes. > I'd actually hope we'd be able to do it _more_ with GTK, such as having > GTK tabs, using the header bar, etc., where emacs currently looks rather > antiquated. Then we'd be dealing with GTK randomly resizing our frames to fit the tab bar in addition to the menu bar. Or the authors of the GNOME Human Interface Guidelines declaring tab bars against the law at some point in the future. No thanks.