From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Call for volunteers: add tree-sitter support to major modes Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2022 16:15:00 +0800 Message-ID: <87mta2ixob.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <83czb1jrm3.fsf@gnu.org> <878rlo7on0.fsf@thornhill.no> <83o7uki5ol.fsf@gnu.org> <87tu4c5g9j.fsf@thornhill.no> <87k057j7gn.fsf@yahoo.com> <83ilkqg7ik.fsf@gnu.org> <874jwake9u.fsf@yahoo.com> <83czayg5eq.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3869"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: theo@thornhill.no, acm@muc.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org, jostein@kjonigsen.net To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 11 10:44:30 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oiAsI-0000pq-6e for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:44:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43296 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oiAsH-0007j7-5c for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 04:44:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51732) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oiAQ1-00037z-FA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 04:15:17 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic313-10.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.185.33]:36053) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oiAPx-00032y-VX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 04:15:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1665476111; bh=8uqrckLhcj8WmyPaII60w/6HGvsMcLvERX2EldnQxQg=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=twv8UHvgq4ecumSRat6dYOFzsBhO9c7kCejBOYQ5AseF4kqmFo17g7dekdSbSJ17MbzWWrrlmo+4xGgfya95SIRLgbpMjWCTlE2duFBbxQQQdbO0AmmKsPGnhOXWqFLce42nTxRvcdR7y9OEpdkKDW5O+RlZEwOjyBlwkd/IWtJ28kNgi4oYZO7yMyEhkLqFMvS7vje8FActyIkOLTJk+eXmTWVCu4ezHh1MFRFxvm9fuLuFGrtkj/rCdVmW54h4bKZrv8slEWWF5Xc/+nhb4A35LT4gAEAo6dGYsP9kTCvUugG1yd6EstKcsvebTyy74RGAghY8g5wsoENYqWHP5g== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1665476111; bh=opAJ8EV7G/Ft0ZRe/6uLJuFeLhboR6sk166Q9yN0Om9=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=onpIBCubhw8d32+epIrYJAm42a9GbYVcW1U2uQMDJP5Gaa99VeAorEnYWeD4r0drQNri47Jj7VMWMPckiD41IOJK0Z7NFEPSNdQkxdPlgV0iYnQ2xJISp8M7T25x3PQc34uUtfhkue80ZfAFtqwX20rO0a7l7kPjJn/x8M3qczEA+rUoI5CnEFear+sKsXvBWSZ0TvfDezry2h2L2Y4E2eLZtRKDnhVq4MSibsnBfuOOL6cpcwFdTlxdPqU3Z6eeaUCgbCFIRAKyATd8rchss2GQti1qho62zA6lY5jy213RlWFvA17UCEEmUSUEEU0iRwys/Wt3yhVrY4tG02QTxg== X-YMail-OSG: TUNxXxoVM1msAspmTvuwlk5_gdVKgxNhI5wNWMauB4MMO9qExbcqvxTjUjmZfAr bVnX2x1L2ykUZouWfCjlL5tGqSVMVwbjfLo0N5dAaeU3LP.ds7YY_oFFDVH63yiICm7zR.DPuNYo HkcGa0fx58.db8Oc.oe8VSFxjYAXK5vJIdU4UfPcHC375D3UUgy9Q683gIxTcHxsQAZ0gEkrVHrT FHzfZzg8X5kZI5cFrYNaN_yef3uhEiv20YBI_6hS_eBtvGzcNI1MjL9rJ_zflmhmdx7y05Afaj8x 0mIob5OfgyRo8rNlZzdK38eNoZcSQjPl5cIngNSR7O8K6kHsnyDd3xxJKxlxWieZWvvFoXcVDmYj yDrjepsJ4NnD.9l7C9ttsth8mWZoFTAs4vxX1oN0hA.4qvhEne7sAjLz_hSwXBsXav8I9Pu2aphq .Lv9eLgO4lG3DFN5q_GtK34MELmTjUjt55xUZ_yzaD27lgIX3vIC3HRuJAhpETIF5CQWJloyRiAk 1s19vg_d09o6ieOwRl_ZHBfnvYYKBEyx1XQRwHPJ.o2_BxGKZ17u7nPrp_ilFjOr92pAWDXdxAEY D3cR2lOS9htKHdiNBsWAuFApwYtv_2DH6uwvcoAnxrqtupeDAiI6si1asdcmSYbFl2FVHn8tWyaX TLGl3pyTTWggxAlD6IzaFoSWLe74ed5nEF9CKhbI3buUZAfQ0B.yhMjDA5z60HaE8OMg0ZenqTC4 9Ed8eK.VzmSlt.qqm7dQBD3gFZ1werjUyTOcHqWjf9IQkPV_PaWSg85Xk7tnaId.GN5bWtxYc_yQ xZ1UVe1MjM58lXV32Ba4J_IBTzhLfb6lD9uKABX0DM X-Sonic-MF: Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:15:11 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--production-sg3-785466d859-xnk8q (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d4611ea104b3c38163286dcecd1ee1ed; Tue, 11 Oct 2022 08:15:07 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <83czayg5eq.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 11 Oct 2022 10:56:13 +0300") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20740 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.185.33; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic313-10.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:297452 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > Only as long as you use Latin scripts. Or CJK ones, which work perfectly fine without HarfBuzz text shaping. I have no experience with others. > And even there, we want to support typographic ligatures and other > features of modern fonts. Typographic ligatures and modern fonts are also orthogonal to editing code, which can be done reasonably on 8x13 or 9x15. > Emacs is not just a text editor. Networking is nowadays an integral > part of any development environment. E.g., package.el would be > impossible without TLS connections. But why would package.el and similar features be an integral part of any development environment? Remove networking support and TLS from Emacs, and people will still use it. Then, delete (or slowly waste away) CC Mode, and almost all of our users will disappear. > Because we have past experience to indicate that. Look at Semantic, > look at CC Mode, etc. My conclusion from that is clear, and it's > non-negotiable, not as long as I'm doing this job. The difference between Semantic and tree-sitter is that Semantic is comparatively slow, and written in Emacs Lisp, while the latter is written in C, a much faster language with multiple higher quality implementations. CC Mode barely qualifies as "language parsing technology." Not to mention that the scope of CC Mode is really much wider than that of tree-sitter. i.e. tree-sitter does not provide style guessing functionality. > Really, how many more examples of this do we need to understand what > is and what isn't future-proof for Emacs?? How blind can we be if, > based on long and rich past experience such as what we have, we don't > realize that developing key technologies in-house is a dead end for > us? Are we really _that_ blind?? What is actually demonstrated is that Emacs Lisp and the existing C primitives are unsuitable for implementing language parsing technology. > Sorry, I cannot agree with such a terrible waste of our scarce > resources. Too bad.