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Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 22:31:59 -0500 Message-ID: <87msvh6mds.fsf@sebasmonia.com> References: <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <12da6bcb-1818-7fbe-12af-8d4607724332@gutov.dev> <87il6bt4z0.fsf@yahoo.com> <8734xetjkk.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywhsrcf.fsf@yahoo.com> <87cywgx1z0.fsf@web.de> <83wmuowwp3.fsf@gnu.org> <83leb3v5al.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29139"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , joaotavora@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 14 13:03:14 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r2s8N-0007Io-Qw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 13:03:13 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2s7e-0001P6-1M; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 07:02:26 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2k9m-0006UF-7Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 22:32:06 -0500 Original-Received: from out4-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.28]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2k9k-0005Pl-2u; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 22:32:05 -0500 Original-Received: from compute5.internal (compute5.nyi.internal [10.202.2.45]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971E65C01F5; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 22:32:00 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute5.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 13 Nov 2023 22:32:00 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sebasmonia.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type :date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm3; t=1699932720; x=1700019120; bh=a5I1Yk1TNQwi8GygVtaD949tl ZHxWKj6GLz3vVguW8I=; b=iBfaIaW4gcAB2lia8Kie8XxO3M8ZGI7fuN6agB4tv uqPFFHacBcbbpijSD6DzSxhYjxF6jpj80lgqpKMYLFBt676sp0HL3xq7W+v/AyHt HrDOPOJVk64urJpzzKJhKQl9xPsAjb5FfRucj7NuauvK9o6iPTtAFBROEy6z1No6 QQrzedKSkRVX+6LkzvCRTzsOPD8IEdxg013nb12m8jd6bMLhzSwZdvit4wIOh+1K l/0g02eE1iv0UQolmnr8xElRTWJaHgJAEaMlHEIBqCnMtkOdhlMowCgM3ZGXwdeB Zi3CQ5j9383CBQlBGVTKqoF+R4U6//bQ5eWm+eLpNNbFw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t= 1699932720; x=1700019120; bh=a5I1Yk1TNQwi8GygVtaD949tlZHxWKj6GLz 3vVguW8I=; b=ZMpyRVjPVrTM/vCVwyZMkkcC1xNIO+evZcc/85n1NZq61PiYycD ZD15as90olECrPeS0o6jx7teId//+QkV7ZPhTxStLf8jiIWMkUqAxXJ0JL31Yuic iq2rJXd7W9R5dqK6dQafgsOpMGKxHFe+PjVu+l9+LfBzbKuquxt+LlVbeobJ85D/ qiZ66icb+M8dzTXXZvkYw5aToBqKyoLjli6rcBBl+xwIQTbD13cm/pf8meheUbaU A0f8ToHUlK/Qc5d6wJbU1iXM3ot0LKI/IfdYq2P8wcyv6OuayoMykTKhddKusRBL KjzTHXbQ04ns0LaJZQ3kEmmODSva6E7W4UQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvkedrudefuddgiedtucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephffvvefujghffffkfgggtgfgsehtqhertddtreejnecuhfhrohhmpefuvggs rghsthhijohnucfoohhnvogruceotghouggvsehsvggsrghsmhhonhhirgdrtghomheqne cuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhephfdtfeejvefgieekfeethfekteeghfejtedtudduudfgudef feekhedtffdtvefgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilh hfrhhomheptghouggvsehsvggsrghsmhhonhhirgdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: iab7c46da:Fastmail Original-Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 22:31:59 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Mon, 13 Nov 2023 21:58:55 -0500") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.28; envelope-from=code@sebasmonia.com; helo=out4-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 14 Nov 2023 07:02:22 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312725 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > Boy that is hard to understand. I suggest we rewrite those cl-loop calls > into ordinary Lisp, avoiding use of cl-loop. I find that loop very readable. I am not an expert Lisper. Beginner at CL, maybe mid-level if being generous. I did write a couple Emacs packages. I have been following this thread somewhat closely. My opinion maybe isn't worth much because I am not a regular contributor. But maybe it helps as one of the angles discussed earlier was related to the size of Elisp and complexity for newcomers. 1. This kind of thread is more "scary" to potential Emacs contributors than any degree of complexity in cl-lib. I can confirm that. 2. There's a lot of vague arguments for and against the library that, as an semi-outsider, read more like stylistic preference. Sometimes familiarity, or lack of it. Few objective reasons for/against. 3. Anyone interested in writing code for Emacs has to make the leap to a Lisp (elisp, in this case) which is already quite alien to a large population. For non-programmers, the problem is indistinguishable from learning any other language. Even for most people familiar with software development, cl-lib is the least of their difficulties. I hope that was in some way helpful. Thank you, Sebasti=C3=A1n