From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Unable to close a bug in the tracker. Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:13:59 +0900 Message-ID: <87ljfw3v94.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87iqb5o7ie.fsf@red-bean.com> <7b501d5c1001140141i4de045bma15759d59e442dfe@mail.gmail.com> <7b501d5c1001152002q1ac6a83fheb2e439fa859ae3a@mail.gmail.com> <83fx66cvxa.fsf@gnu.org> <874ommwbvr.fsf@marauder.physik.uni-ulm.de> <877hri2tfu.fsf@telefonica.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1263787580 29843 80.91.229.12 (18 Jan 2010 04:06:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 18 Jan 2010 04:06:20 +0000 (UTC) Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3scar?= Fuentes , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Miles Bader Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 18 05:06:13 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1NWisW-0000vf-DX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 05:06:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36388 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NWisX-0001bY-00 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:06:13 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NWisQ-0001a7-Tw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:06:06 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NWisL-0001YV-Nh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:06:05 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=39708 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NWisL-0001YS-FL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:06:01 -0500 Original-Received: from mtps01.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.223]:34232) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1NWisI-000721-QN; Sun, 17 Jan 2010 23:05:59 -0500 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by mtps01.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C261537B5; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:05:56 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 34F241A35F6; Mon, 18 Jan 2010 13:14:00 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: VM 8.0.12-devo-585 under 21.5 (beta29) "garbanzo" a03421eb562b XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:120182 Archived-At: Miles Bader writes: > =D3scar Fuentes writes: > > The Version Control system must be tailored to developers. The bug > > tracker shall be accessible to users as well. Yup. Isn't it time to stop making excuses, admit that there really is a problem here, and either say, "It's too much effort (so don't bother asking any more)", or fix the bug tracker? > Sure, but note that >=20 > (1) This is only true of some operations -- users very often _open_ > bugs, or give further comment, but other operations are almost > always done by devs This actually isn't true in Emacs. Emacs developers have never hesitated to ask users to do things like provide additional information, etc, and I have seen requests to add tags on this list. Although those requests for tracker operations may have been directed at other developers, *Emacs users do accept responsibility to do (reasonable amounts of) scutwork* to save developers the trouble. Isn't it worth paying them back for that? There are also Emacs developers whose relationship to emacs-devel and the email-based workflow is very intermittent; they show up briefly before a release, want to interact efficiently with their package's bugs (often a newly added one), and are stymied by an unfamiliar or long-disused UI. (I know this has repeatedly happened to me in dealing with debbugs for Debian's XEmacs packages.) > (2) How convenient a particular interface (web / emacs / generic email) > is depends on the operation -- commenting on a bug you're already > following (for instance, if you submitted it in the first place, or > are a dev working on it) for instance, is usually far more > convenient via email, even for people that generally prefer web > interfaces (because they can just hit "reply" in their mail reader) Nope. It varies by project, and Emacs might be better than most. But for bugs I've reported to free-desktop.org, MacPorts, Debian, SuSE, Fedora, Mailman, and Bazaar, I've almost always had to go to the web interface for context (previous messages and uploaded files) because the mail that I get is weeks later, and a laconic one-liner (eg, "I don't understand") followed by 12 lines of administrivia about bug status and nosy lists. And some trackers allow response to specific messages (specifically, email-based trackers will), so if you don't save all your bug-related email, you will be unable to determine where in the thread this particular mail belongs. Curiously enough, I never need to go to the web interface for XEmacs bugs. But I have a funny feeling that's not Emacsen-specific, but rather developer-vs-user-specific. > So I think while a good web interface is important for some operations, > it really isn't critical to have one for _all_ operations. Hopefully > that makes the problem a bit easier... Basically, setting status and priority are the only ones you can leave out. Even assigning the bug to a developer should be allowed for users, because that often speeds up response dramatically. But setting status is trivial to implement.