From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Michael Heerdegen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Replace trivial pcase occurrences in the Emacs sources Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2018 01:00:56 +0100 Message-ID: <87lg679irr.fsf@web.de> References: <83r2g8klf9.fsf@gnu.org> <83wopzk3sw.fsf@gnu.org> <83r2g7jrot.fsf@gnu.org> <83k1lzjq0r.fsf@gnu.org> <83in1jjmy4.fsf@gnu.org> <20181031120821.GA20575@ACM> <831s86jey9.fsf@gnu.org> <83wopue1xl.fsf@gnu.org> <87o9b62mij.fsf@web.de> <83sh0idt6m.fsf@gnu.org> <87efc22igk.fsf@web.de> <83pnvmdp1i.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhup2451.fsf@web.de> <83ftwhdj2k.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1541462351 11563 195.159.176.226 (5 Nov 2018 23:59:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2018 23:59:11 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 06 00:59:06 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gJolt-0002tn-W9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 00:59:06 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38188 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gJoo0-0007P7-9J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2018 19:01:16 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44475) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gJonu-0007Oq-2g for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2018 19:01:10 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gJonq-0001lZ-SQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 05 Nov 2018 19:01:10 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:51085) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gJonq-0001jW-He; Mon, 05 Nov 2018 19:01:06 -0500 Original-Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.218.210.177]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb102 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LzKIP-1fOhrM2TAX-014X6A; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 01:00:57 +0100 Original-Received: from drachen.dragon ([94.218.210.177]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb102 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LzKIP-1fOhrM2TAX-014X6A; Tue, 06 Nov 2018 01:00:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83ftwhdj2k.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 04 Nov 2018 16:16:19 +0200") X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:ROx6uXja0AHdXcfPfIVA8hb3740/KNQyKdvNdMHXDQCY+F1KUag fjvVAEF3LSK7ECEsyLCucfShbRj08+2lVkNc4Fj7+UMu7P9C5CZAimOWvpT9+c0wDFQeKvn O+SDSqc7ldy/jBxKaw59+IR5KU8seIT11u9lyHkhdyxHp1zqio1U4XAaJ7379yuaCKu2whK kD1xEwR9bYnsHafFVpzFA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:6WL+M2FNWX0=:TqM054/DZF8Ux1a1kxvytZ ZVeQndcUaPN1Lus3B1/HoGFdxPHg6CGlpemAfHEjI2kOinv/DnXVVySqSYxzCyUqxw6hfEXuC 01/rVpr8NRmZXDYdcqOZg1jI7wXQnO2SjOMdmenuiTkOLC7+IaovjMalTtnfHk3t26eMfIeug XdM0POBhgd6xsoMUAwzH/bTdY+fiP1e9GXI/YPZ1I+HukgKwkNFIjdpn/IwLJvoMRwIiWKMKy eBJURitUu6rBF+ID1/vbqH+uLCWMxoDSKvT0l/lSIZAjoLG6hJoG2CiK3u8m4JaY3uTZo3gfC +r6OOnWMA4FxneVjD1FlCV5PgQieTTPfcyWR0sHugqXFoS6zgMxaUqigNS1H2uctfh+AbO6uA yFLWCLIBdIYx/XOQgw/zzM30NJiM7xyXhSo//nEu8aO1T8UagSrPXcDpAxPsQnJvk6aCIBu6u M0oE/oSiV6bcDLhlmc5eWHWlA1Rp7FHfSekqc8LI35P8WV4lszJhISxePRs8WmcN9bQXebnuB 7Df91ERZq/wpaRa2nb39P1JRSZ3Jvl5q/wy0DoPy3XyoGrgCqBXUQqEJii3wuROJgNRyGyh1m FhbYVxh9JW+HKqCKZtla8BdmTjogOWB4pR4oP5KoKwrS5nHXpOgb9LvLQIvtkqS8l5Cno4kkT BUJu1p3WiZuh9ZvYi3u1c7xGqhOlOc1BTOhxAiVgQsVpQdrmIjbE8RfH26TCd6FdI72uc4aFW CTFnBde0Babq4mNEer5GcCCFB9s60dXijU0c2o+ZX8M/J+6qVWkk9wAk5z5PVhrdCKRsymx3 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 212.227.17.12 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:231032 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: > > > Destructuring binding requires destructuring, that's all. > > > > "Destructuring binding" - pcase has nothing like that. > > The section in question is not about pcase, it's about pcase-let, > pcase-let*, and pcase-dolist. I only summarized these as `pcase' since they use the same pattern matching mechanism from pcase. > Would you be happier if the text said "typically" instead of > "generally"? Because that's what it means. It's ok for me if it means that. > Could you please tell what concrete changes in the doc strings of > pcase-let etc. would make you happier? I feel that we are trapped in > abstract discussions with no clear way out, and I think I'm at least > slightly confused what is it that you don't like about the current > docs. I'm also confused. I found the old docstrings simple and clear (though they lacked some details). I find already reading the new docstrings in order to make suggestions for improvements straining. After I read your response, I see and can comprehend now that everything makes sense from your point of view. You have a totally different view and understanding than I. For example, for you `(,a ,b) and `[,a ,b] are two different patterns for destructuring binding that can be used in pcase. For me, I see SYMBOL as the trivial pattern thing to establish bindings, and the ` macro which has a simple specification that fits into very few lines, and above we have two examples of combining and using the two. I can only say that I find the new docstrings more confusing and complicated than before, and I find it a mistake to describe the behavior using concepts like "destructuring binding" that neither have a direct counterpart in the implementation nor in the specification. I agree it could help people when the manual uses such concepts to explain things and make nice chapters, but I don't like it when docstrings use such terms, terms that are not clearly defined and don't really fit to how the thing actually works, instead of giving a clear description. I understand now that the new docstrings actually give a clear description to you; for me, they are now harder to read and understand. So I don't think I can be of much help, becauseprobably my suggestions would not be acceptable for you. I wonder if there is still a way to provide the old docstrings, at least as comments in the sources? Thanks, Michael.