From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:27:53 +0800 Message-ID: <87lfmmpet2.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <86blno9yle.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87d0845msg.fsf@yahoo.com> <87h7xgjasw.fsf@yahoo.com> <0B01B576-3DC7-4FAE-8010-C9B5CB6BA024@icloud.com> <87d084htcf.fsf@yahoo.com> <149F5B4D-F219-409C-A994-096C777259EC@icloud.com> <87v9lweynz.fsf@yahoo.com> <74B639DD-3775-4BE7-B0B2-300B5CE62E14@icloud.com> <87k12bewpq.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o8rnacxr.fsf@yahoo.com> <877dyaye21.fsf@yahoo.com> <87blnlbnba.fsf@yahoo.com> <87v9lsqgqw.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="107758"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: me@enzu.ru, joseph.h.garvin@gmail.com, Richard Stallman , stefan@marxist.se, emacs-devel@gnu.org, pcr910303@icloud.com, eliz@gnu.org, drew.adams@oracle.com, ndame@protonmail.com To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Apr 23 14:29:06 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jRayY-000Ruq-VM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 14:29:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42330 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRayY-0003yZ-27 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:29:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54604) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRaxW-00035A-F4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:28:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRaxU-000819-Rt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:28:02 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.191.147]:32895) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRaxU-000802-FJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 08:28:00 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1587644878; bh=2MZuNKfy1oXKRmtVjCRZ21gb44B9y0OY3x7BWOREOEs=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=ATU8gaFSWeoVqj2nEna/fAXtBR4Eqwh2fOmIiNYCd6+i6H4Odg9/6gnw/jChftVXODfVK/wqI1L6Dq/T6XEfTjluHjhWg7yhans1DfOiyLMA2/gQN4OxpOGmlmN4lIlOTKgSvpC/XCr7Io3VJsiLAqxjRaBbSI56QNdlpP68vHIn4BEeijZgusj9YvoHTC5sc6RXG8hB/sUPlVE6Wt9wex1HcVOIa+j+7KkS0Wdp7DG8vGt4+gZfkIdTYX7ARJAVVabDqE3ljKcOn3WsExwORheD7+9ra+jd7eHzxMd4vzKv+vjp3Ml9to2C6nR5PbgAqB5x/+yj2wih68cxh+U3ew== X-YMail-OSG: WUYbJkQVM1lgarS5zVGzjF8ql.wIBHDFYwmguWQbrQfbFVvzJ61A.PDpDBA_YFT 5tC5.Fq0ncUxAKdI5Ni7uQG.PyUxAWG1Lu.lKHlTW3Tb_P9LbGbpYVlv1ok0FmT73FkDp5f_lEUG Ss70YpuUK108f.PltS5jHiEeblGjrxd10XgWHmX29qvOwxROvwsFPfuMOXBTibAOp7HDMCTytDTt f7BLbxVwRB.M4cpWCYM4jJxwhGBoLI99t.gI7QYBk1nVF6TySbhUmz9orWj2m5wx2KyqhqgtU0ht ERC.2tO3qKRvzj2uhy9o4VPfns4FxJ5XuiLhhkerJexhlb3WorGd6dU15KEtx7AwzGnMHN55b2ec eVzsFI959PsZSPXyFEEOxD6HdYukwpT70Zjgd9H2PwNJdo5WBsVG7Kx_Z8PE51YiRt411oakSJMs wq_oYm16J1u0r5ZyAuIhOtsf0Usyk.7wu7IP3AffQ3._Kr7o07VC6Jelq4BmA06AjLJjzdWGgx_v TMi9TD_V0KpSMPNnXXbIeAQx_3CFXZdHlCdzfvaJeBbRQD_86AmVXDogEnltiykLnqcglD.rTIm7 dcFJTAoZQ2abKfP_6XBXcKipbeFgJ3TRmJEwFDiD9_ExY6wSUs19a5MT94vVv.BHLuv1co3k.IZh RE2pD8ljBqkEyEQFsdYWVipR5MPcwe2MTxmRmZn9cXKSvPgsxzY6kuR0wKS4EYELDq7uUo51WTrF vMd0h.8I8kev1WCAFqsbrY77jqlBZuhN8bBtxSXChKimH_X4Hbk7uqapv6u9vIQgIdiYLz57jEf. lKbJ9kWidlH4uCA2fGHb46DszO0R4jLerxHBwHqqp0 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic304.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 12:27:58 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp406.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 1e82e56f20ea1916def6ef2e45d3f1f1; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 12:27:57 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Monnier's message of "Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:00:22 -0400") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15756 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.191.147; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic304-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/23 08:27:58 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 X-Received-From: 66.163.191.147 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247572 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: > Because of how it evolved, there is clear separation. > And it's hard to retro-fit a distinction after-the-fact. > But I personally do think of the Elisp world as split into various "layers": > > A- The core language itself. > B- The core standard library. Are you referring to `subr.el' and friends, or built-in primitives, or subrs in *fns.c, or both, or all three? > Great example: putting it in (B) makes sense, yet at the same time I'd > put buffer-local variables in (A), thus breaking the layering. Precisely. > There are other implementations of Elisp, some of which are not tied to > an editor, so it can make sense (see the paper Mike Sperber and I wrote > for HOPL-2020 for an example). Of the many implementations that I see listed there, most are from the "let's rewrite Emacs (in our favorite language / better)" camp, and do include some (or most of) the editing primitives. Of the others, I don't really see Emacs Lisp, but a glorified MacLISP with optional lexical binding and some Emacs Lisp-ish features. I suppose we're operating on different definitions of what constitutes "Emacs Lisp".