From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2022 22:43:04 +0000 Message-ID: <87leol9ifb.fsf@gmail.com> References: <651bbe21-f179-730a-4f10-7dc6d27055ea@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="9730"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Gerd =?utf-8?Q?M=C3=B6llmann?= , Richard Stallman , Andrea Corallo , Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Nov 08 23:42:47 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1osXIs-0002PD-7v for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2022 23:42:46 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1osXI5-0006aW-8B; Tue, 08 Nov 2022 17:41:57 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1osXI3-0006a4-UI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Nov 2022 17:41:56 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1osXI2-0000Um-D1; Tue, 08 Nov 2022 17:41:55 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id p16so9702476wmc.3; Tue, 08 Nov 2022 14:41:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=t+kl7VMcD3R0W4t1xlqadAaWc4beMEwl1bXa4x6C4h4=; b=Pn6SX+Nl9oCO1vdveblcWb9GwWYKX4DwcidswdHbcmtVkj4INGEN0r7LSrMMHy/ZWH RoRQ7fNS/s8KU7tLu6Bp/q08omDKf9WVUDEj9Be6R0vkdyQi7FKIU43I/mOkLcDmKZWh k+VWVKllVbyUEfNnhpELuv59JevkcNagWx81e3OO5FArUc1rXMngZzOi7tCEPKAIJq1g fhsgS1MNdLHO4JpedNvStYxETbn01rYwHwzMar9NwmLPa6xgv5xlHzp/tHO5dmzbkj+Y DixY3U5GCdIMSMpWG0oPAKFcedUemRN3rELq7gLVNr49I2ynYGGKAt5Dni2G+gAryXHr /ulA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id:date :references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=t+kl7VMcD3R0W4t1xlqadAaWc4beMEwl1bXa4x6C4h4=; b=Ynu69IGDB9yenPweNZmOlrs5550sjajg/MKMzH47YejQqqTwWaQhOOhKHuICFUtmC1 Qpsh8sQ+3KV2HUfKomJLVotF2djbggnkHve1x1N2atmc/lub5PJ44YqdlTOZIGCriZ73 vCGwiUJ9hp251aiulcd2AuOfvlc9QTeVwkrgtWtFdH+1kqsvXhilY1l0c4GCKN12tWpq M+i5QE24Fl3JORCcogQ+vyQWyO+YjZz6IM36vD2ZY3djN5xFGrz+DOnKQbkXszsJFEvK 7AoRC3BI4rQFKycgYVKaCk14vl2QjUAkuk7LQaT/MFPGsbb7mR+4MnVh6a3JzyV9G+XS Q6ug== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3b94JdhqfZJZZAXrx9Imc/nXaeP0ZsCLzvrKHsDc1TMLqGlMhX aLnEuRILyKDsuEg8kXuTRknocULIPQw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM765BGxQbLHVhoDftVd66YfnV5YojVGp8F+93A1pXKxN5SIFFjYEkbl3bFkG+Ipa8QGjV1W8w== X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:1d11:b0:3cf:7981:9a2 with SMTP id l17-20020a05600c1d1100b003cf798109a2mr31162990wms.92.1667947311523; Tue, 08 Nov 2022 14:41:51 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from krug ([87.196.81.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ck17-20020a5d5e91000000b002383e977920sm11409247wrb.110.2022.11.08.14.41.50 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 08 Nov 2022 14:41:51 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: (Stefan Kangas's message of "Tue, 8 Nov 2022 07:47:05 -0800") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::32b; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x32b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:299373 Archived-At: Stefan Kangas writes: > As Jo=C3=A3o explained, shorthands was added mainly for the benefit of s.= el > and dash.el (none of which uses it yet, I think?). But it was not clear > from the discussion at the time that it was to be extended into a > general module system. I wasn't and it cannot be extended into a general module system. Emacs already has one always has, albeit one with severe limitations and based on cumbersome and easy-to-break convention. Shorthands are just a way to make live slightly easier within it. > That's a more recent development. Until and > unless changes in that direction have been installed, it seems premature > to talk about sailing ships. FWIW I don't agree with those changes, it seems like they would lead to truly odd situations like having an el file load different sets of symbols depending on how it is loaded (what happens if one M-. to a definition, fixes a bug, and types C-M-x?) But even if they are installed, I don't think they negate the need for CL packages or make them any harder to implement. Jo=C3=A3o