From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Daniel Cerqueira Newsgroups: gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general,gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: @dircategory (Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 12:48:46 +0000 Message-ID: <87le8wyr0x.fsf@brilhante.top> References: <8734vda9kz.fsf@yahoo.com> <5EC9A02F-DB34-48B6-BD2D-CB9E89A385D0@traductaire-libre.org> <83r0iwuek9.fsf@gnu.org> <837cknvkrx.fsf@gnu.org> <83r0iuuacz.fsf@gnu.org> <83frz4mmef.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22599"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Cc: Patrice Dumas , jean.christophe.helary@traductaire-libre.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, help-texinfo@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 11 13:49:38 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: gnu-help-texinfo2@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rNuV7-0005g7-Rt for gnu-help-texinfo2@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:49:38 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rNuUn-0007uW-Ue; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 07:49:17 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rNuUh-0007sv-CC; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 07:49:12 -0500 Original-Received: from forward500a.mail.yandex.net ([2a02:6b8:c0e:500:1:45:d181:d500]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rNuUc-0004xl-HC; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 07:49:09 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-84.vla.yp-c.yandex.net (mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-84.vla.yp-c.yandex.net [IPv6:2a02:6b8:c2b:7a7:0:640:3f88:0]) by forward500a.mail.yandex.net (Yandex) with ESMTP id 9E0DE61801; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:48:54 +0300 (MSK) Original-Received: by mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-84.vla.yp-c.yandex.net (smtp/Yandex) with ESMTPSA id qmis4b9vOiE0-6uviljCH; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 15:48:54 +0300 X-Yandex-Fwd: 1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brilhante.top; s=mail; t=1704977334; bh=FR4zfM6JNsYnSZy3dnWh0B/TQq0mBWGieSNJpBIPr5A=; h=Cc:Message-ID:References:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:To:From; b=HLkoyEpKJxlNVAE/lzDYpBsgPGqk+SQ3dblAZwmBBFAx95xEGp2GQQLuAnCo9umkL C/WME8sG7Ixk6kmurwsiJj4PtbQa3crIFILFx4WQGNEpvURQrdwdx/ETf8APOmbdME Mzij8LrMdBGk9/wV40h7dvRO2d9zpG7KRC+7WrOc= Authentication-Results: mail-nwsmtp-smtp-production-main-84.vla.yp-c.yandex.net; dkim=pass header.i=@brilhante.top In-Reply-To: <83frz4mmef.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 11 Jan 2024 08:09:28 +0200") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a02:6b8:c0e:500:1:45:d181:d500; envelope-from=dan.list@brilhante.top; helo=forward500a.mail.yandex.net X-Spam_score_int: -22 X-Spam_score: -2.3 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FROM_SUSPICIOUS_NTLD=0.498, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_PDS_OTHER_BAD_TLD=0.01, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-texinfo@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the Texinfo documentation system List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-texinfo-bounces+gnu-help-texinfo2=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.comp.tex.texinfo.general:3400 gmane.emacs.devel:314852 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 21:52:23 +0100 >> From: Patrice Dumas >> Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Kangas , >> Vincent Bela=C3=AFche , >> emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, help-texinfo@gnu.org >>=20 >> In any case, if a target manual is not yet translated, to me it is the >> responsibility of the translator of amnual linking to it to either link >> to the english manual, or to translate the node name in @ref even though >> it won't lead to an existing manual and the name may need to be changed >> later on to match with the actual name used in the translated manual. >> To me both case could make sense depending on many criteria, such as >> whether readers are likely to read english, whether manuals are >> being translated... > > The translator doesn't always know whether a translated manual exists > when the translation is being written. And even if a translated > manual does exist, there's no reason to be sure it will be installed > on the end-user's system. > > So it would be good to have some Texinfo feature that would make the > behavior of Info readers more user-friendly in these cases. Right > now, the Texinfo features that can help are @documentlanguage and the > suggestion by Gavin to have in the translated manual an @anchor for > each @node with the original English name of that @node. > How come the translator doesn't always know whether a translated manual exists? That is ridiculous. It is the same as saying that a translator just translated a whole manual, without checking, and it was already translated. Ludacris. >> In any case, I don't see any reason to do any automatic redirection in >> the Info reader, it should remain simple and be the translators/writers >> responsibilities. > > I don't think I agree, because leaving this completely to the > responsibilities of the translator could easily produce sub-optimal > results. Sub-optimal? Like translators are deficient? We, translators, know what we are doing. (I am the translator of GnuPG and Git). >> Another reason is that it would not be possible to do the same in >> HTML, as in HTML it is not possible to check if the target exists. > > Even if this cannot possibly be done in HTML (and I'm not yet sure), > it shouldn't stop us from doing that in Info. After all, HTML output > lacks several features of Info output already, and it doesn't stop us. I wholeheartedly disagree with Eli. In here I am nobody, but still I don't like this complexity being added to a tool that I use to make my books (texinfo).