From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: IDE Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:07:50 +0200 Message-ID: <87k2qufsop.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <5612E996.7090700@yandex.ru> <83bnc7tavr.fsf@gnu.org> <5618C92A.3040207@yandex.ru> <83a8rrt9ag.fsf@gnu.org> <5618D376.1080700@yandex.ru> <831td3t62e.fsf@gnu.org> <5618E51D.4070800@yandex.ru> <83twpzrp05.fsf@gnu.org> <5618ED93.8000001@yandex.ru> <83lhbbrnn7.fsf@gnu.org> <56191EBE.5050404@yandex.ru> <83612essaw.fsf@gnu.org> <877fmuix68.fsf@isaac.fritz.box> <8337xispn2.fsf@gnu.org> <56195055.6010409@gmx.at> <83r3l2r1nf.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1444504113 24066 80.91.229.3 (10 Oct 2015 19:08:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 19:08:33 +0000 (UTC) Cc: John Wiegley , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 10 21:08:32 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkzVO-0004Pr-UB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:08:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45917 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkzVO-00019e-Dv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:08:30 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38922) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkzUm-0000sz-Lg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:07:53 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkzUl-0003lS-N2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:07:52 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:58804) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkzUl-0003lO-Jr; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:07:51 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44388 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1ZkzUk-0001IB-Qy; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 15:07:51 -0400 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 549CAE18A7; Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:07:50 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <83r3l2r1nf.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 10 Oct 2015 21:58:44 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:191167 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: "John Wiegley" >> Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:31:13 -0700 >> >> To reiterate: I think Emacs becomes more of an IDE when it provides >> the backbone of an IDE, and not when it looks like one. > > I don't think this will fly. In effect, you are telling Emacs users > they will have to code their own IDE by using the infrastructure > (a.k.a. "backbone") that we provide. I don't see that. He is telling Emacs developers they'll be able to rely on common infrastructure for creating an IDE catered to some particular language/system. If we are talking about smart completion and debugging support for languages compiled with GCC, this could mean a lot of things working out of the box (source-level debugging with expression evaluation/inspection, syntactic indentation, jumping by statements or other logical units, semantic information and completion etc etc) before you even know the language we are talking about. > To me, an IDE is not a set of functionalities. It's a coherent > application that provides an IDE-like look-and-feel, and all the > related functions already integrated and ready for me to be used. Without a uniform framework to create such IDEs, no uniformly usable IDE for different languages will fall out. > We cannot provide a toolbox and tell users make your own IDE from > these tools. It wouldn't be the task of the users to create those. > Integrating those tools together is a non-trivial task a user should > not be expected to perform. Forcing every developer to redo it from scratch will lead to very spotty and inconsistent support of languages. -- David Kastrup