From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:16:37 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87k1nxu3h6.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87k1o1a06q.fsf@russet.org.uk> <877ek1ql6u.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87tvn2g665.fsf@russet.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536310131 26724 195.159.176.226 (7 Sep 2018 08:48:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2018 08:48:51 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 07 10:48:47 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCRZ-0006pM-HG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:48:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37470 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCTf-0006bB-LI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:50:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:42591) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCPj-0002qH-8f for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:46:52 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCPi-0000m6-D1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:46:51 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p02-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5302::5]:28524) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCPi-0000bp-4Q; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 04:46:50 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536310008; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=rT8gmgrsVJq+KuNPPbe2UahB7Hb1OdnZ0cLrnaja3kU=; b=OGK1wRwR90AuC18SMouJ/1TkiGT9hCuIYoKsAPeiicYK5cIQv2dtaMa8Ykld16Thjh ajjHPxMUZ1AzXpPcNy+8Mx4+9uvxjRgyDn/GVqJuS6Ml3QVXg4oAnJvkCYMFgtz8dDyA Ct7ibJJ8Lcdatpb8gfLbP3oKO5C02H2RKB7SGoWDAqe+/sqQpSc9jbYcdldrZ0SuqdNE UdP/D4ql7gOCVF1k/CMAMBp8m3fy1L8uPAUS+Jkc7+zgNRPSshb4B+jSgje8bVMK3y3W XzMlC9Vv+WH1gY9KQjpDRw52rxodXnD4qhCXWZfNbQdIxIq07jjWeJbr4SYgJbmVfT4X wWCg== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u878jtB2N (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Fri, 7 Sep 2018 10:45:55 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fyCOp-0000o9-6z; Fri, 07 Sep 2018 10:45:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87tvn2g665.fsf@russet.org.uk> (Phillip Lord's message of "Thu, 06 Sep 2018 13:29:54 +0100") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5302::5 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229384 Archived-At: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) writes: > hw writes: > >> phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) writes: >> >>> Personally, I would like to ditch all the "how to move around" with >>> keys stuff -- this scares most people to hell, because they think that >>> they need to learn this to do something that they already know how to >>> do these things. >> >> right >> >> The current tutorial is more suited to drive people away than anything >> else. >> >> Who knows what a META or an EDIT key is? And who cares? Even after >> almost 30 years of getting used to them, I'm finding notations like 'C-x >> ret f' or 'M-w' very confusing. How does that belong into a tutorial? > > > I think we need to introduce this notation, because people will see it > everywhere; but we should not depend on it. How would you not depend on it? What confuses me is that C is so easy to confuse with c or C, etc. I'd find 'Control-x ret f' or 'ESC-w' much easier to read. >> People might use C-v to copy something rather than to scroll. They will >> use the cursor keys and PgUp and PgDown to move around. > > There is a separate question here about making Emacs better > out-of-the-box. One of the things that might improve things is to turn > CUA mode on by default for instance. What does that do? >> Your tutorial even explains what Emacs is and gives some history. That >> is a much more welcoming start. > > Thank you! > >>> In terms of advanced issues, my thought was to enable tutorial >>> extensions to go into ELPA and then have a navigational structure. >> >> Maybe several tutorials would be better, like one covering what Emacs is >> (nowadays that may be a good idea), one covering the first steps and >> others covering the installation of packages after users have aquired >> some understanding of what packages are. > > > There is also the practical reality that the Emacs update cycle is > relatively slow. A tutorial on ELPA could be updated out of that cycle. Such tutorials should be shipped with Emacs when they are available.