From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 12:41:57 +0800 Message-ID: <87k128qgh6.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a736wyed.fsf@yahoo.com> <2F7AD0CB-FF83-4244-BD77-7E0460A77762@icloud.com> <87wo6a7abj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87o8rlbnic.fsf@yahoo.com> <45098d13-2770-4a19-6f82-b22276eb51c8@yandex.ru> <877dy91mb0.fsf@yahoo.com> <0ce06d95-0593-bc55-983f-6b6601503a1a@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="49345"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= , =?utf-8?Q?S=C3=A9bas?= =?utf-8?Q?tien?= Gendre , Emacs developers To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 22 06:54:03 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jR7Od-000Cjx-MA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 06:54:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41822 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jR7Oc-00058K-Qe for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:54:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40436) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jR7D5-0007Hj-6j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:42:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jR7D4-0005uY-6I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:42:06 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic311-25.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.188.206]:46222) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jR7D3-0005i4-J5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 00:42:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1587530523; bh=4ss35e6hrHeF/htjYG7zv87FIFFOl9nJK94mgpSfH8c=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=LTfne472NiXd/9DRtd7bQewixAwpBCq4A/+Mskim3G4rmsBeXqUHFUTOugY90LNJtxrkGVVHW3/XbyPCTknEwInsKpaDfsFQf+rXQ+UGliLloyVND8HlovXUuh8SrVHaK6fFPEN300o5e6OlbW4wfD0oGTtRB0T0P6VqbxCB0VWGVxPdeFm88XdfLBtD/0c1ltSvzPzD2zp0GzDC3OzZ/ByCPtxtlyoS6Gk44Leoaay0k7gOAXPWqhHksTUR/FSRi+v+2Xr6AsRzL6ExH1+4Y/KnrtvlndQtyqMkPcrvBgCE/bSgi1gq1+QLFDAXBqjUu1nBTyH1asE/5e0xJBoGlg== X-YMail-OSG: fTdqvNcVM1kRwgE5bJuJFjHIt8U5eXGM5Qjj_NlKrvpVK7zEF8UprsQtbsrDQQx IbQ_9xL_l6tKCvK3qX13Nkzy72NORH0v4agqeHI0mHbRhoIZly2cJASiPaPsjNbliOvw9yNheUCs pj4VdDFiMlDrMBMtC9gLiF4w178ODdmQtucJb2y1Mk7IMwH8i5_lL9Ojj3x2AY_UDU9QXyIe8U_q Cb.hP7zxzkWOwXnObt4rydquN6mDPeroRpD8yFpNCmMizDCLFpomcGsHILJJFcrA038PjoNuRda8 v_Gf84EXoFhjN5tyQd0LwZIJH6hCo6VLN7dNZD6SoIgxg23ClRgr46DSmFX3pRQXmgZOOy3HIUOu YYoQtTAwuCxp5z_915Se8nsncd6vdrdi4c1CEbCF6CNlzNACHPGfrb.iRp2xaT4C.ZRA_giBy2E8 Z3L1z.AGBddosKW7OS5vubEvsTTzKdZo.NMhhGcLeqreR3xIwqN89x0dGA8bKOMU2PUrkqLXw7aF WHQSoVjGsy6yQyqpIGDMoKgtiAWK26TVc7seGQB3eySKDnE.omy0APtaCujv72cP3fOJCwUx9Z1c 5wIqlaDyRczm4uh87e.OQX9v3L42yn.G0l.qntZM9KbbiTmVKiC_Og8ZDccu4MuZWXOtQvuPheO5 bpzDA7KyiCDEDfGziycDQbJjQFtEQ7DcpGaqzN1KYBKmw.lx3ODZ09HPM23rFH5XnkCnzybiLoVF Q3PeQ6xcuJkyuXRR.ncvbR8Y0xz6H7eAOhzzCNDdK7oJtT.2NzkHeCgxNFIcZwzpYQkyZcaThwpH BPkbw2D2CT9nl_dOoncJxtA5gr4VrYhA7ksc5caWqm Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic311.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 04:42:03 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp410.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID a2463c2358a5349cb4c79932021ce53a; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 04:42:00 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <0ce06d95-0593-bc55-983f-6b6601503a1a@yandex.ru> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Tue, 21 Apr 2020 16:55:39 +0300") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15739 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.188.206; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic311-25.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/22 00:42:03 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 X-Received-From: 66.163.188.206 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247498 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > And then, another 20 years pass, the current users get too old/change > careers/retire/etc, and Emacs's userbase shrinks even more. I have seen people say Emacs will die by 2000 in the 90s. I've also seen people say Emacs will die by 2010 in the 2000s. I've also seen people say Emacs will die by 2020 in the 2010s. Since all of those predictions of doom have consistently failed, I'm not inclined to believe any of this either. > I don't want Emacs to die out, and it will if we don't do the work of > attracting new users. And we're attracting a fair amount of new users. What I would hate to see is Emacs prioritizing "attracting users" over "being useful". I'm sure many in the community agree with me. > Also note that we don't really have the ability to poll even our > existing users, to find out whether they would like a given > change. Even disregarding those who would change their mind later. The anecdotal experience of many people I know (and I'm sure many people on this list too) would agree that drastic changes are a bad thing. > Give it time. Also, Xref was actually useful in a way. Drastic redesigning just to attract new users does not. > I think it's possible to support two sets of keybindings. That's > definitely extra work, though. We already have Cua Mode. Having a button on the splash screen that says "enable Cua" should be enough. > Including simply designing a set of bindings that is both compatible > with CUA and yet retains the current design principles to some extent > (so far I have no good ideas on that front). I don't think that's possible, at least without 20 years advance notice.