From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jack Kamm Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A new user perspective about "Changes for emacs 28" Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 00:23:17 -0700 Message-ID: <87k0x29jtm.fsf@gmail.com> References: <1ca462fa-0f9e-3c18-6386-f43f49388b2f@gmail.com> <20200907180812.5tfylspp7i6vl4o3@Ergus> <94fda087-a61b-356d-4bb4-791907593246@yandex.ru> <24302cf8-5ac8-4abd-83ce-3e33c51a8beb@default> <83k0x4mjsv.fsf@gnu.org> <831rjcmgn8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24566"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: nicola.manca85@gmail.com, ams@gnu.org, spacibba@aol.com, drew.adams@oracle.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 10 09:24:09 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGGwD-0006HD-7m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 09:24:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35860 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGGwC-00080H-8n for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 03:24:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36014) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGGvT-0006b4-43 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 03:23:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]:54467) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGGvR-0004ID-Jf; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 03:23:22 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id mm21so2583820pjb.4; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 00:23:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=2fdlT8AuvLVDVRvb5psu6i5jP1h5hlr6mSAKGfKBchY=; b=ZeElqLegm2LUGHeTfTEpITuYP9AxLJK+WsvRlZBQrbumovZwtVArKDEmwrWQnCPwHn PlooLMNG1rlqDi/AP79+rL+8p1xoVBHLRG+enchnBgiammdDtYZK4jPL7rKoJT3mBhOV /Bg6PqozPa2++m+hlNz1HwebKU1d88ZdRvMf8GpS2m5hG4RybAjphEg3SWUJC/Y7cwZD O/f7ZaF9DMphoI6FlxtMaHpvKW5PGmlpIg/BTWaqQ5aLC2CVHHNiuzDqhx7F5oasd5Jc 1BhQyNWi0Q/qNZCsnVED7IMgHLbMQM92PNdjlvaVMMZTHwt8JVE1SiPdkAR5oexJ/1tx GP5Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=2fdlT8AuvLVDVRvb5psu6i5jP1h5hlr6mSAKGfKBchY=; b=SghmHNOdMbGuJ2QGV3blmMB+9Mw3TAGuiGPt9X2hiagfdsFvWvnDnOGN313rAOZZEl 7iCyZSnAuOSHvTUjBq3CJ7yxufQJksK16OcbHydS2WJT2H1dhE22hs3zbfdzbp/Z7FwJ aLVnBPT7sysWzYj+D0CTEfuRil24G3hksb+T50UWJ/b7OrfaKE+iv5B0WrlUFWSnKVy5 W9+iWA9CU4kxN9PLni7ylHHRtfPwTi1ef5/aPtarXRuj66J8vWNY69V310FmaD3S9fRX Zt4HNJfENZMFj4DLG9BL7MEUuzsTMytwsv9Jz6Luklh92FIDa7OQ7sz9WF6mwfw0P7o1 Bvkg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532564FuK6l3uvJWpxFJAqIfSD6eGv5Ks3Hj0jzNJQHC0JEegX2L yW/YMWljxlG+hlrYEDbgMsg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwCXRgsiurfoz1Bh6r+1spMCxaFeBNxlxe//ioKjgOkiqxVHL7j2iFdgNQ32UN8filYDkCDYQ== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:6903:: with SMTP id r3mr3885390pjj.169.1599722599124; Thu, 10 Sep 2020 00:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (199-83-220-90.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net. [199.83.220.90]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s129sm4832503pfb.39.2020.09.10.00.23.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 10 Sep 2020 00:23:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a; envelope-from=jackkamm@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102a.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254951 Archived-At: > And try to consider how the visualization would look. I think it would > have to be like a tree (basically, like the one undo-tree paints). Then > it would probably be logical to have at least two different commands > which allow traversing the buffer states in both directions along the > branches of that tree. And presto, we got undo-tree again. undo-tree is great. I used to think it was superior to native undo, but had to disable it due to the corruption bugs. Recently, I started using selective undo (i.e. undo in region). In my opinion, it's a killer feature of native undo, and even more useful than the undo-tree -- in particular, I think it's usually quicker to find an old edit with selective-undo, than it is with undo-tree. undo-tree can use selective undo, but in the past it was considered buggy, and the common recommendation was to disable it [1]. I'm not sure if that's still the case, but if you think about it, selective undo violates the tree structure of the undo history, so naturally seems a poor fit with undo-tree. Using selective-undo, revert-buffer, undo-only, and undo-redo-only, it becomes a lot easier to navigate emacs' undo. But these features are not immediately obvious; I had to read the Info page to learn about them. Whereas, undo-tree is quickly grokked due to the nice visualization. [1] https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/37399