From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: PGTK-related misconceptions Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:13:03 +1000 Message-ID: <87k0bltq2h.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87lew7qdtj.fsf@yahoo.com> <87zgkjvujl.fsf@athena.silentflame.com> <87czhfkldw.fsf@yahoo.com> <87sfqbvtcw.fsf@athena.silentflame.com> <87tuarj5lv.fsf@yahoo.com> <094f1b7a-9a50-07d4-8b7f-9ba65286b49c@gmail.com> <878rs1by4p.fsf@gmail.com> <83sfq9vcod.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32084"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.7.12; emacs 28.1.50 Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com, jporterbugs@gmail.com, spwhitton@spwhitton.name, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 19 10:53:55 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ngjcQ-0008C2-E5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2022 10:53:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47738 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ngjcP-0000WH-6f for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2022 04:53:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33062) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ngjZ3-0006sY-7M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2022 04:50:25 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x635.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::635]:34481) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ngjZ1-0005CE-AX; Tue, 19 Apr 2022 04:50:24 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x635.google.com with SMTP id n8so14876517plh.1; Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:50:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version; bh=8x/aW6sYaYHXP9uOh7qIA9/9Wm7MlST8GBqlL8MySIQ=; b=Qm0DawFbxw/n/qcF9SoQHpMQ6u0pnHWhklVmy8YsBnTanY9b0Q2vF6+vqniqutUUFs C1VxVmUwXDm6riIRZe0hPpctrq6v/2NLR7D1aBV5m3qplp2hGNvHf8A7NKGvGJrl9xkF Gkzn98yS19NWlAdC3ulyZgzvnQkpGDWrH3bM2c+1pCuHL+npKo97CespKrOlkr98pXmC n1zCc0+T7T9Ww+fYir6YacjdgWo2cFfzWTjFBQHZy7sY2IXW35IrjHonRMqkDRUkEiAb LTuvZNvWLwQeDUi3AqfjS/C1Rf3Jafs/A6N9eHKxRlCEYnEViX4fZXs3iKjwOkKXiFO+ LKuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=8x/aW6sYaYHXP9uOh7qIA9/9Wm7MlST8GBqlL8MySIQ=; b=g7WFX6jdemycNOWGQPfcjmfQ2rlKJR4ejVul5LVgKgpB2GfqWVEgOVyAADqLk8pPzQ mhyMjtAS+ix40Vi60EVwJgnzZsUafteZsHcZprczXS8IrPwc7B35IwGQ1x7NqE/B2lBV s27Qks1FKNRv8mV+T0SsoEDvOH8SdqxA5sWYFS89b+RaqGRonVqYPk0p8XjMl5XmCS7W Ndd4SwRlrpuVyLyv1BIFndWhSCdHDce66kzuSr3ggU6t+s4hyHVV/pdPLfUzO4F/tSN/ cgyxk6jMalczMlRM4N+oX6xzLd+XMxFwVfILVc1ZCcwjvXn/MNFEjkDJ/wlo4niVENHo 6Wiw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5316rhKp13JkNFyFKrIgD/ra10CiYCsSIgT6k5zOMVRIdyC5QReO Aq2tGkqFUEluQTO0N+51BcM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyULfTI/o56jrkpl+khJnct40ucyO0Y77fAywsGDKWjyH2svr9RazKRTvLFJcV6MJdunHqFPg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:180f:b0:1d2:d217:6373 with SMTP id lw15-20020a17090b180f00b001d2d2176373mr2546864pjb.161.1650358220838; Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from dingbat (220-235-29-41.dyn.iinet.net.au. [220.235.29.41]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b184-20020a62cfc1000000b0050600ab6e26sm15430747pfg.187.2022.04.19.01.50.18 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 19 Apr 2022 01:50:20 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <83sfq9vcod.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::635; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x635.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:288656 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Tim Cross >> Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 12:18:07 +1000 >> Cc: Po Lu , emacs-devel@gnu.org, >> Sean Whitton >> >> I agree. I think this is the main point being missed by others who have >> argued the existing documentation is clear enough. Like it or not, >> people often don't read the documentation or NEWS file carefully. There >> is also a tendency for people to believe any new feature is an >> improvement and I suspect many people will think a pure GTK build is >> going to be better than a hybrid X/GTK one. >> >> We should just add a very explicit and clear warning not to use >> --with-pgtk if your running under X and put this statement right at the >> beginning of the section in the NEWS file about this new option. > > Aren't you contradicting yourself here? If people don't read > documentation, how can any addition to the documentation solve this > issue? (Of course, I don't object to saying something in INSTALL > about that, just pointing out that it's hard to have it both ways.) > Eli, rather ironically you just proved my point. I didn't say they didn't read the documentation, I said they didn't read it carefully. Just like you did with my post, they skim read it and can easily miss crucial points. The fact people are building with pgtk when only running under X would tend to indicate the messaging is not adequate. Making a clear concise statement not to use pgtk when using X early, even at the start, would increase the likelihood skim readers see it. >> It might even be worthwhile adding a warning in configure as well (like >> the one we have about pop support). > > I object to annoying people who build Emacs with such warnings. > Besides, warnings (as opposed to errors) in the configure script are > easily overlooked, because people tend to leave the build run > unattended, and do other useful things while it runs. > I guess there not terribly annoying if they are easily overlooked! Just like the warning about removal of pop support and pointer to mail utils, this warning could be at the end of the build. At any rate, seems like a more important warning than one about no longer supporting pop3, which few mail providers support anymore anyway. >> Like others, I expect many distributions are going to bundle >> emacs-gtk believing it is an improvement. I suspect it is going to >> be a bigger issue given that some popular distributions, like >> fedora, will be shipping with wayland as their default but there >> will likely be many who will choose to switch back to X, but then be >> faced with an Emacs built with pgtk to better support the default >> wayland setup. > > IME, there's nothing we can do against such misconceptions. We will > get bug reports and will respond by pointing people to NEWS and > INSTALL. Eventually, enough people will bump into this to realize the > truth, and the issue will go away. No catastrophe that I could spot, > and no need to get too excited. You do seem to like jumping to extremes. I don't think anyone has been screaming catastrophe. All I've seen is people asking to make this more obvious and explicit. Maybe it won't make a big difference, but then again, maybe it will. The cost of making the limitations of pgtk more explicit in NEWS and INSTALL is very low and even if it only stops a few people from doing the wrorng build, reporting a 'non-bug' and getting directed back to NEW/INSTALL and having to rebuild, I think the cost has been justified.