From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Alternative build systems Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 01:38:56 +0200 Message-ID: <87k06yh6nj.fsf@telefonica.net> References: <83wnb1bt96.fsf@gnu.org> <87a67vuwmo.fsf@gnus.org> <41a702f1-60fb-65fb-3862-d198c46cd6e6@gmail.com> <87sflnqaub.fsf@gnus.org> <87a67vhtat.fsf@telefonica.net> <83wnaz6ioy.fsf@gnu.org> <874jy2j4s9.fsf@telefonica.net> <83r1167vct.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15077"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:qtaIANKlpRcEznPp3r+WbcYI/o8= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 24 01:42:31 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQdXS-0003im-NC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 24 Aug 2022 01:42:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41048 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQdXR-0008Jl-CI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 19:42:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46092) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQdUI-0006yQ-PT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 19:39:14 -0400 Original-Received: from ciao.gmane.io ([116.202.254.214]:46768) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQdUA-0005Ze-Hq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 19:39:13 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQdU8-000ANF-9Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Aug 2022 01:39:04 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293921 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> When I made the CMake build system for LLVM/Clang, it was about 1.5 >> orders of magnitude less verbose than the autoconf-based system for >> feature parity. > > No one says you'd see anything like that with Emacs. Emacs is not a > compiler system. Indeed, probably less reduction is expected on Emacs' case because its build requirements are way simpler than Clang/LLVM (which is much more than a compiler, BTW.) Or not, because even small autotools-based projects are overly verbose and daunting. >> CMake has the advantage of being procedural (like an ordinary scripting >> language) and declarative (like `make'). This makes possible to use a >> high level of abstraction that helps a lot when dealing with complexity. > > Sorry, that's not my experience. In the few cases where I needed to > tweak a CMake build (admittedly, nowhere as complex as Clang), I found > myself battling the same kind of stuff as with Autoconf: a huge > library of macros, variables, and settings. Moreover, quite a few of > those are semi-documented in semi-comprehensible way. The moment you > step 1/2" outside of the "usual" stuff, you are on your own. At least CMake and other modern build systems grants you a high degree of freedom around how to organize your build specification. You can write obfuscated code on any language, but some languages are more convenient than others when a hacker makes the effort of writing easily understandable code. >> For the Gnulib question, I can't answer, I don't know what it involves. >> A quick web search says that Gnulib is tightly tied with autoconf and >> messages like this are a bit gloomy: >> >> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnulib/2019-08/msg00091.html > > I know, right? This is just an example of the problems we'd need to > deal with. (Does CMake support Emacs Lisp compilation? does it know > about *.elc and *.eln files? does it know about emacs.pdmp? does it > know about installing programs like Emacs? etc. etc.) Teaching all those things to CMake is trivial. Adding support for a project that expects that you use their build system is another thing entirely.