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* Tabs in Emacs?
@ 2009-11-17 12:26 Angelo Graziosi
  2009-11-17 13:32 ` Deniz Dogan
  2009-11-17 18:37 ` Andrey Paramonov
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Angelo Graziosi @ 2009-11-17 12:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Emacs

I would ask if there are plans to add tabs, as many modern applications 
have, for Emacs 23.2.

Cheers,
Angelo.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 12:26 Tabs in Emacs? Angelo Graziosi
@ 2009-11-17 13:32 ` Deniz Dogan
  2009-11-17 13:59   ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
                     ` (2 more replies)
  2009-11-17 18:37 ` Andrey Paramonov
  1 sibling, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Deniz Dogan @ 2009-11-17 13:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Angelo Graziosi; +Cc: Emacs

2009/11/17 Angelo Graziosi <angelo.graziosi@alice.it>:
> I would ask if there are plans to add tabs, as many modern applications
> have, for Emacs 23.2.
>
> Cheers,
> Angelo.
>

There is already e.g. tab bar mode, but it's not part of "core" Emacs today:
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TabBarMode

-- 
Deniz Dogan




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* AW: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 13:32 ` Deniz Dogan
@ 2009-11-17 13:59   ` Berndl, Klaus
  2009-11-17 14:47     ` Miles Bader
                       ` (3 more replies)
  2009-11-17 17:41   ` Angelo Graziosi
  2009-11-17 23:43   ` Xavier Maillard
  2 siblings, 4 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Berndl, Klaus @ 2009-11-17 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Deniz Dogan, Angelo Graziosi; +Cc: Emacs

IMHO this tabbar-mode has nothing to do with "real" tabs (as e.g. in Firefox) because the header-line is (mis-)used as tab-title/handle, so when using this mechanism to *simulate* tabs i have no headerline within the tabs... IMHO nothing what i would call "Tabs"...

Klaus

________________________________________
Von: emacs-devel-bounces+klaus.berndl=sdm.de@gnu.org [emacs-devel-bounces+klaus.berndl=sdm.de@gnu.org] im Auftrag von Deniz Dogan [deniz.a.m.dogan@gmail.com]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 14:32
An: Angelo Graziosi
Cc: Emacs
Betreff: Re: Tabs in Emacs?

2009/11/17 Angelo Graziosi <angelo.graziosi@alice.it>:
> I would ask if there are plans to add tabs, as many modern applications
> have, for Emacs 23.2.
>
> Cheers,
> Angelo.
>

There is already e.g. tab bar mode, but it's not part of "core" Emacs today:
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TabBarMode

--
Deniz Dogan



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: AW: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 13:59   ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
@ 2009-11-17 14:47     ` Miles Bader
  2009-11-18  9:40       ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
  2009-11-17 16:09     ` Jason Rumney
                       ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2009-11-17 14:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Berndl, Klaus; +Cc: Angelo Graziosi, Emacs, Deniz Dogan

"Berndl, Klaus" <klaus.berndl@capgemini-sdm.com> writes:
> IMHO this tabbar-mode has nothing to do with "real" tabs (as e.g. in Firefox) because the header-line is (mis-)used as tab-title/handle, so when using this mechanism to *simulate* tabs i have no headerline within the tabs... IMHO nothing what i would call "Tabs"...

Note that exactly tabs _should_ work in Emacs is actually quite
contentious (that's one of the reasons they haven't been implemented) --
Emacs has a significantly more complex model than most apps, and it's
not really clear the best way to map the usual sort of tab-bar onto that
model (read one of the long tortuous emacs-devel threads on this subject
for details I guess)...

-Miles

-- 
((lambda (x) (list x x)) (lambda (x) (list x x)))




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: AW: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 13:59   ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
  2009-11-17 14:47     ` Miles Bader
@ 2009-11-17 16:09     ` Jason Rumney
  2009-11-18  8:49       ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
  2009-11-18  9:28       ` AW: " Miles Bader
  2009-11-17 17:52     ` Juri Linkov
  2009-11-17 17:54     ` AW: " David Reitter
  3 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Jason Rumney @ 2009-11-17 16:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Berndl, Klaus; +Cc: Emacs

Berndl, Klaus wrote:
> IMHO this tabbar-mode has nothing to do with "real" tabs (as e.g. in Firefox) because the header-line is (mis-)used as tab-title/handle, so when using this mechanism to *simulate* tabs i have no headerline within the tabs... IMHO nothing what i would call "Tabs"...
>   

How do you differentiate a "simulated" tab from a "real" tab?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 13:32 ` Deniz Dogan
  2009-11-17 13:59   ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
@ 2009-11-17 17:41   ` Angelo Graziosi
  2009-11-17 23:43   ` Xavier Maillard
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Angelo Graziosi @ 2009-11-17 17:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Deniz Dogan; +Cc: Emacs

Deniz Dogan ha scritto:

> 
> There is already e.g. tab bar mode, but it's not part of "core" Emacs today:
> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TabBarMode
> 

Not belonging to CVS, yet. Right?


Cheers,
Angelo.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 13:59   ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
  2009-11-17 14:47     ` Miles Bader
  2009-11-17 16:09     ` Jason Rumney
@ 2009-11-17 17:52     ` Juri Linkov
  2009-11-17 17:54     ` AW: " David Reitter
  3 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Juri Linkov @ 2009-11-17 17:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Berndl, Klaus; +Cc: Angelo Graziosi, Emacs, Deniz Dogan

>>> I would ask if there are plans to add tabs, as many modern applications
>>> have, for Emacs 23.2.
>>
>> There is already e.g. tab bar mode, but it's not part of "core" Emacs today:
>> http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TabBarMode
>
> IMHO this tabbar-mode has nothing to do with "real" tabs (as e.g.
> in Firefox) because the header-line is (mis-)used as tab-title/handle,
> so when using this mechanism to *simulate* tabs i have no headerline
> within the tabs... IMHO nothing what i would call "Tabs"...

The last time I looked at the possibility to implement "real" tabs
in GTK, there was a problem of attaching GtkNotebook to a widget.
It's possible to bind a Gtk tab to a fake widget or to the same
basic frame.  This produces a warning, but should basically work
by binding GCallback from a tab to any function that we can use
to implement Emacs-specific tab handling.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: AW: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 13:59   ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
                       ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2009-11-17 17:52     ` Juri Linkov
@ 2009-11-17 17:54     ` David Reitter
  2009-11-17 19:15       ` Eli Zaretskii
  3 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: David Reitter @ 2009-11-17 17:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Berndl, Klaus; +Cc: Angelo Graziosi, Emacs, Deniz Dogan

On Nov 17, 2009, at 8:59 AM, Berndl, Klaus wrote:

> IMHO this tabbar-mode has nothing to do with "real" tabs (as e.g. in Firefox) because the header-line is (mis-)used as tab-title/handle, so when using this mechanism to *simulate* tabs i have no headerline within the tabs... IMHO nothing what i would call "Tabs"...

These are two problems - one conceptual, but the other one an easily solvable technical one.

It wouldn't be tricky to add a second header line (displayed just above the header line) for the purposes of tabbar?
This assumes that tabbar-mode wants to operate on the window level (rather than per-frame), to display a subset of the available buffers for people to switch to in that window.  Native widgets for tabs would be the next logical step, but that would require a lot of implementation work for the different toolkits.

The per-frame implementation is very interesting, too, because it would store window configurations.  But that's far away from the current tabbar implementation.










^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 12:26 Tabs in Emacs? Angelo Graziosi
  2009-11-17 13:32 ` Deniz Dogan
@ 2009-11-17 18:37 ` Andrey Paramonov
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Andrey Paramonov @ 2009-11-17 18:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel

Angelo Graziosi <angelo.graziosi <at> alice.it> writes:
> I would ask if there are plans to add tabs, as many modern applications 
> have, for Emacs 23.2.
> 

Dear Emacs developers, please do *not* spend your valuable time on features like
this. Tabs feature is already very well implemented in worthy window managers
(for example Fluxbox), and it works. Instead, please focus on things which are
broken, for example printing (http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/109887).

Sorry for not being constructive.
 
Andrey Paramonov






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: AW: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 17:54     ` AW: " David Reitter
@ 2009-11-17 19:15       ` Eli Zaretskii
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2009-11-17 19:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: David Reitter; +Cc: klaus.berndl, deniz.a.m.dogan, emacs-devel, angelo.graziosi

> From: David Reitter <david.reitter@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:54:17 -0500
> Cc: Angelo Graziosi <angelo.graziosi@alice.it>, Emacs <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,
> 	Deniz Dogan <deniz.a.m.dogan@gmail.com>
> 
> It wouldn't be tricky to add a second header line (displayed just above the header line) for the purposes of tabbar?

I think it might be at least non-trivial.  If memory serves, the
current display engine assumes that there's at most one header line in
a window (in exactly the same manner it assumes that there's only one
mode line).




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 13:32 ` Deniz Dogan
  2009-11-17 13:59   ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
  2009-11-17 17:41   ` Angelo Graziosi
@ 2009-11-17 23:43   ` Xavier Maillard
  2009-11-18  1:57     ` Miles Bader
  2009-11-18  3:30     ` Stefan Monnier
  2 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Xavier Maillard @ 2009-11-17 23:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Deniz Dogan; +Cc: emacs-devel, angelo.graziosi


   2009/11/17 Angelo Graziosi <angelo.graziosi@alice.it>:
   > I would ask if there are plans to add tabs, as many modern applications
   > have, for Emacs 23.2.
   >
   > Cheers,
   > Angelo.
   >

   There is already e.g. tab bar mode, but it's not part of "core" Emacs today:
   http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TabBarMode

Why would someone need tabs in GNU Emacs exactly ? I am
curious. Buffers and related functions (browsing, navigating,
filtering ... ) are so powerful that I do not clearly understand
the need for such features.

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 23:43   ` Xavier Maillard
@ 2009-11-18  1:57     ` Miles Bader
  2009-11-18 17:20       ` Xavier Maillard
  2009-11-18  3:30     ` Stefan Monnier
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2009-11-18  1:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Xavier Maillard; +Cc: emacs-devel, angelo.graziosi, Deniz Dogan

Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
> Why would someone need tabs in GNU Emacs exactly ? I am
> curious. Buffers and related functions (browsing, navigating,
> filtering ... ) are so powerful that I do not clearly understand
> the need for such features.

If implemented well, tabs can be a nice visual reminder of recently used
buffers and UI for simple and quick mouse use.

They clearly aren't a _replacement_ for the more powerful underlying
functions, but I think they can be a useful addition (and make people
used to tabs in other programs feel warm&cozy).

-Miles

-- 
gravity a demanding master ... soft soft snow




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 23:43   ` Xavier Maillard
  2009-11-18  1:57     ` Miles Bader
@ 2009-11-18  3:30     ` Stefan Monnier
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2009-11-18  3:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Xavier Maillard; +Cc: emacs-devel, angelo.graziosi, Deniz Dogan

> Why would someone need tabs in GNU Emacs exactly ? I am
> curious. Buffers and related functions (browsing, navigating,
> filtering ... ) are so powerful that I do not clearly understand
> the need for such features.

Actually, to manage window-configs, I think it might make sense.
I use frames for that (and if your WM supports tabs, you may end up
with the same functionality), but not everyone likes it that way.

This doesn't mean it's a high-priority feature, but if someone writes it
cleanly, I'll happily accept it.  IIUC Alin Soare <as1789@gmail.com> has
already started work on it.


        Stefan




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* AW: AW: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 16:09     ` Jason Rumney
@ 2009-11-18  8:49       ` Berndl, Klaus
  2009-11-18  9:26         ` Teemu Likonen
  2009-11-18  9:28       ` AW: " Miles Bader
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Berndl, Klaus @ 2009-11-18  8:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jason Rumney; +Cc: Emacs

Simulating means, simulating tabs by using the headerline (AFAIK this is how tabbar-mode is implemented, isn't it?)...
Real would mean, there is a headerline available in the tab-window...

Please correct me if i write nonsense...

Klaus 

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Jason Rumney [mailto:jasonrumney@gmail.com] Im Auftrag von Jason Rumney
Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 17:10
An: Berndl, Klaus
Cc: Emacs
Betreff: Re: AW: Tabs in Emacs?

Berndl, Klaus wrote:
> IMHO this tabbar-mode has nothing to do with "real" tabs (as e.g. in Firefox) because the header-line is (mis-)used as tab-title/handle, so when using this mechanism to *simulate* tabs i have no headerline within the tabs... IMHO nothing what i would call "Tabs"...
>   

How do you differentiate a "simulated" tab from a "real" tab?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-18  8:49       ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
@ 2009-11-18  9:26         ` Teemu Likonen
  2009-11-18  9:30           ` Miles Bader
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Teemu Likonen @ 2009-11-18  9:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Berndl, Klaus; +Cc: Emacs, Jason Rumney

On 2009-11-18 09:49 (+0100), Klaus Berndl wrote:

> Simulating means, simulating tabs by using the headerline (AFAIK this
> is how tabbar-mode is implemented, isn't it?)... Real would mean,
> there is a headerline available in the tab-window...

I think that speaking of functional differences and usage patterns is
more useful in this discussion.

Anyway, previously I used Vim editor and found its tab feature handy and
very intuitive way for maintaining and switching between different
window configurations. With Emacs I use frames but I'd prefer having a
nice tab-like functionality within a single X Window frame. I don't care
if it is called "tabs", but just an intuitive way to switch between
different window configurations would be very useful.

> Please correct me if i write nonsense...

Ending sentences with just one period is enough. :-)




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: AW: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 16:09     ` Jason Rumney
  2009-11-18  8:49       ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
@ 2009-11-18  9:28       ` Miles Bader
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2009-11-18  9:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Jason Rumney; +Cc: Berndl, Klaus, Emacs

Jason Rumney <jasonr@gnu.org> writes:
> How do you differentiate a "simulated" tab from a "real" tab?

Well among other things, a "simulated" tab-bar steals the header-line
from other uses...

Also I presume the tabbar.el tabs are "per emacs window", and arguably
a per-frame tab-bar would be more like other apps, and that's considered
more "real".

[Though of course that is one of many issues that could go either way ...]

-Miles

-- 
Faith, n. Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without
knowledge, of things without parallel.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-18  9:26         ` Teemu Likonen
@ 2009-11-18  9:30           ` Miles Bader
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2009-11-18  9:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Teemu Likonen; +Cc: Berndl, Klaus, Jason Rumney, Emacs

Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> writes:
>> Please correct me if i write nonsense...
>
> Ending sentences with just one period is enough. :-)

Haven'''t you heard???  Three is the new one...

---Miles

-- 
Quack, n. A murderer without a license.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* AW: AW: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-17 14:47     ` Miles Bader
@ 2009-11-18  9:40       ` Berndl, Klaus
  2009-11-18  9:52         ` Miles Bader
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Berndl, Klaus @ 2009-11-18  9:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Miles Bader; +Cc: Angelo Graziosi, Emacs, Deniz Dogan

Well, cause of Emacs' complex model with buffers, windows displaying buffers and frames displaying windows and on top window-configurations there is no easy answer, i have to admit.

But nevertheless i will make try:

IMHO tabs should an a frame-basis and each tab should display window-configurations, i.e. switching to a tab X should display exactly the window-layout and contents as X has contained when the user has left it
And each window of the window-configuration of a tab should contain it's headerline...

Is this understandable?

Klaus

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Miles Bader [mailto:miles@gnu.org] 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 17. November 2009 15:47
An: Berndl, Klaus
Cc: Deniz Dogan; Angelo Graziosi; Emacs
Betreff: Re: AW: Tabs in Emacs?

"Berndl, Klaus" <klaus.berndl@capgemini-sdm.com> writes:
> IMHO this tabbar-mode has nothing to do with "real" tabs (as e.g. in Firefox) because the header-line is (mis-)used as tab-title/handle, so when using this mechanism to *simulate* tabs i have no headerline within the tabs... IMHO nothing what i would call "Tabs"...

Note that exactly tabs _should_ work in Emacs is actually quite
contentious (that's one of the reasons they haven't been implemented) --
Emacs has a significantly more complex model than most apps, and it's
not really clear the best way to map the usual sort of tab-bar onto that
model (read one of the long tortuous emacs-devel threads on this subject
for details I guess)...

-Miles

-- 
((lambda (x) (list x x)) (lambda (x) (list x x)))




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: AW: AW: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-18  9:40       ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
@ 2009-11-18  9:52         ` Miles Bader
  2009-11-18 10:19           ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
  2009-11-18 14:56           ` AW: AW: " Stefan Monnier
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2009-11-18  9:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Berndl, Klaus; +Cc: Deniz Dogan, Emacs, Angelo Graziosi

"Berndl, Klaus" <klaus.berndl@capgemini-sdm.com> writes:
> IMHO tabs should an a frame-basis and each tab should display window-configurations, i.e. switching to a tab X should display exactly the window-layout and contents as X has contained when the user has left it
> And each window of the window-configuration of a tab should contain it's headerline...
>
> Is this understandable?

Sure, but... it may not exactly be what's most convenient for users --
again, it's a hard issue.

While a window-configuration switching implementation is useful in some
cases (e.g. eclipses uses a sort of similar system for switching between
"debugging view" "browsing view" etc), how would the different
configurations get set up ?  I can imagine a system that required
explicit user action ("add a new tab with current config"), but... 

I think many users might just want to switch between buffers, and have
tabs automatically added for each buffer (perhaps limiting the number
displayed in a MRU fashion, e.g., how eclipse handles source file tabs).
That seems to be more similar to how tabs work in e.g. visual studio,
and other editors...

argh... :]

-miles

-- 
Suburbia: where they tear out the trees and then name streets after them.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* AW: AW: AW: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-18  9:52         ` Miles Bader
@ 2009-11-18 10:19           ` Berndl, Klaus
  2009-11-18 19:08             ` Juri Linkov
  2009-11-18 14:56           ` AW: AW: " Stefan Monnier
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Berndl, Klaus @ 2009-11-18 10:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Miles Bader; +Cc: Deniz Dogan, Emacs, Angelo Graziosi

Well - "argh" is well spoken ;-) 

Another suggestion, or precisely a refined suggestion:

1. Introducing new commands which represents your scenario where opening a new buffer opens a new tab (e.g. find-file-other-tab, switch-to-buffer-other-tab, adapting display-buffer in an appropriate manner etc...) Optionally we could also introduce some new defcustoms which can define a default-behavior: e.g. using the standard window-related commands (e.g. find-file-other-window) automatically opens/uses other tabs ...

2. But in general tabs represent window-configs and leaving a tab X stores ist window-config in a suitable way so it can be restored when entering again tab X - all this has to be happen automatically! Often the window-config will only contain one window...

So when a user wants the tab=buffer relation, he has it - he just has to use Emacs in way so opening buffers and switching to buffers operates on tabs (see 1) - but the whole stuff is much more powerful for scenarios where a tab contains a full window-config. The latter one is similar to something like escreen.el and winring.el and could be usefol for running in one tab ECB, in another Gnus, in another GUD - like eclipse...

Thoughts?

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: miles@gnu.org [mailto:miles@gnu.org] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 18. November 2009 10:53
An: Berndl, Klaus
Cc: Angelo Graziosi; Emacs; Deniz Dogan
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: Tabs in Emacs?

"Berndl, Klaus" <klaus.berndl@capgemini-sdm.com> writes:
> IMHO tabs should an a frame-basis and each tab should display window-configurations, i.e. switching to a tab X should display exactly the window-layout and contents as X has contained when the user has left it
> And each window of the window-configuration of a tab should contain it's headerline...
>
> Is this understandable?

Sure, but... it may not exactly be what's most convenient for users --
again, it's a hard issue.

While a window-configuration switching implementation is useful in some
cases (e.g. eclipses uses a sort of similar system for switching between
"debugging view" "browsing view" etc), how would the different
configurations get set up ?  I can imagine a system that required
explicit user action ("add a new tab with current config"), but... 

I think many users might just want to switch between buffers, and have
tabs automatically added for each buffer (perhaps limiting the number
displayed in a MRU fashion, e.g., how eclipse handles source file tabs).
That seems to be more similar to how tabs work in e.g. visual studio,
and other editors...

argh... :]

-miles

-- 
Suburbia: where they tear out the trees and then name streets after them.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: AW: AW: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-18  9:52         ` Miles Bader
  2009-11-18 10:19           ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
@ 2009-11-18 14:56           ` Stefan Monnier
  2009-11-18 19:19             ` joakim
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2009-11-18 14:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Miles Bader; +Cc: Berndl, Klaus, Emacs, Angelo Graziosi, Deniz Dogan

> While a window-configuration switching implementation is useful in some
> cases (e.g. eclipses uses a sort of similar system for switching between
[...]
> I think many users might just want to switch between buffers, and have
> tabs automatically added for each buffer (perhaps limiting the number
> displayed in a MRU fashion, e.g., how eclipse handles source file tabs).

To me it's clear that the C part of the code should offer a "tabs"
widget which the Elisp code can then place anywhere in the window tree.
So you can have it at the root (tabs-fer-frame), or at the leaf
(tabs-per-window), or in-between (for things like ECB maybe).


        Stefan




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-18  1:57     ` Miles Bader
@ 2009-11-18 17:20       ` Xavier Maillard
  2009-11-18 19:12         ` Juri Linkov
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Xavier Maillard @ 2009-11-18 17:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Miles Bader; +Cc: emacs-devel, angelo.graziosi, deniz.a.m.dogan


   Xavier Maillard <xma@gnu.org> writes:
   > Why would someone need tabs in GNU Emacs exactly ? I am
   > curious. Buffers and related functions (browsing, navigating,
   > filtering ... ) are so powerful that I do not clearly understand
   > the need for such features.

   If implemented well, tabs can be a nice visual reminder of recently used
   buffers and UI for simple and quick mouse use.

Hum yes. I am always in the linux console thus I do not need more
stuff. But I am pretty sure that even in X, I would not run the
graphic toolkit ;).

Sorry for the digression.

	Xavier
-- 
http://www.gnu.org
http://www.april.org
http://www.lolica.org




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-18 10:19           ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
@ 2009-11-18 19:08             ` Juri Linkov
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Juri Linkov @ 2009-11-18 19:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Berndl, Klaus; +Cc: Deniz Dogan, Emacs, Angelo Graziosi, Miles Bader

> Thoughts?

What you describe was implemented in the first prototype of
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/93208/focus=94508
that I have later used as the basis of implementing "real" tabs.

In the current implementation, the frame-based tab-bar is located
below the tool-bar.  The C part mostly duplicates code from the
non-tookit implementation of the tool-bar.  So there already exists
a non-tookit version of the tab-bar that works without crashes.

As for the GTK implementation, I still have unresolved problems.
I'd like to share the current code, so all Emacs developers would
be able to contribute to the development of the GTK part or to
improve code to place the tool-bar and the tab-bar anywhere
in the window tree, etc.

Sending a 4000-line patch to emacs-devel@gnu.org doesn't make sense.
Ideally, I'd like to create a new branch in a dVCS.  I regret we still
not switched to bzr where a new branch could be created cheaply.

Any suggestions on how to proceed with the implementation instead
of many years of talking about benefits of this highly useful feature?
(I can't now image how I used Emacs without tabs in a one-frame
configuration.)

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-18 17:20       ` Xavier Maillard
@ 2009-11-18 19:12         ` Juri Linkov
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Juri Linkov @ 2009-11-18 19:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Xavier Maillard
  Cc: deniz.a.m.dogan, emacs-devel, angelo.graziosi, Miles Bader

>    > Why would someone need tabs in GNU Emacs exactly ? I am
>    > curious. Buffers and related functions (browsing, navigating,
>    > filtering ... ) are so powerful that I do not clearly understand
>    > the need for such features.
>
>    If implemented well, tabs can be a nice visual reminder of recently
>    used buffers and UI for simple and quick mouse use.
>
> Hum yes. I am always in the linux console thus I do not need more
> stuff. But I am pretty sure that even in X, I would not run the
> graphic toolkit ;).

I happily use Emacs tabs in the console since internally tabs are just
a list of window configurations that can be displayed in any way.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: AW: AW: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-18 14:56           ` AW: AW: " Stefan Monnier
@ 2009-11-18 19:19             ` joakim
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: joakim @ 2009-11-18 19:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Monnier
  Cc: Berndl, Klaus, Deniz Dogan, Emacs, Angelo Graziosi, Miles Bader

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> While a window-configuration switching implementation is useful in some
>> cases (e.g. eclipses uses a sort of similar system for switching between
> [...]
>> I think many users might just want to switch between buffers, and have
>> tabs automatically added for each buffer (perhaps limiting the number
>> displayed in a MRU fashion, e.g., how eclipse handles source file tabs).
>
> To me it's clear that the C part of the code should offer a "tabs"
> widget which the Elisp code can then place anywhere in the window tree.
> So you can have it at the root (tabs-fer-frame), or at the leaf
> (tabs-per-window), or in-between (for things like ECB maybe).
>

It could presumably already be almost possible with my xwidgets patch.
Ill see if I can put together some demo code.

>
>         Stefan
>
-- 
Joakim Verona




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
@ 2009-11-20 11:05 A. Soare
  2009-11-20 11:12 ` Juri Linkov
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: A. Soare @ 2009-11-20 11:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-devel, angelo.graziosi

I resend the message, because I reveived error of the first transmission.


> I would ask if there are plans to add tabs, as many modern applications 
> have, for Emacs 23.2.
> 
> Cheers,
> Angelo.
> 

I did solve the problem. I did write the C code for the tabs of Emacs 1 year ago, but, unfortunately, I had to postpone to send it to emacs.

The code is almost finished, and I believe that in Avril/May I will have time to finish and send it.

I have to add code for Athena/Motif, and that is all.

I attach here a picture of the tabs in GTK and a picture with the tabs in console.

Tabs for Emacs - gtk+ version: http://imagebin.ca/view/hCu302.html

and

Tabs for Emacs - console version: http://imagebin.ca/view/nTtJdHou.html




Alin .







____________________________________________________

Gagnez un séjour au Maroc en découvrant les sketchs désopilants des ReVoila sur http://www.lesrevoila.fr/







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-20 11:05 A. Soare
@ 2009-11-20 11:12 ` Juri Linkov
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Juri Linkov @ 2009-11-20 11:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: alinsoar; +Cc: angelo.graziosi, emacs-devel

>> I would ask if there are plans to add tabs, as many modern applications
>> have, for Emacs 23.2.
>
> I did solve the problem. I did write the C code for the tabs of Emacs
> 1 year ago, but, unfortunately, I had to postpone to send it to emacs.
>
> The code is almost finished, and I believe that in Avril/May I will
> have time to finish and send it.
>
> I have to add code for Athena/Motif, and that is all.
>
> I attach here a picture of the tabs in GTK and a picture with the tabs
> in console.

Good news that you have implemented GTK and console part of the tabs
implementation as I have implemented only the non-toolkit part.

Any chance to merge with your code soon?

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
@ 2009-11-20 11:52 A. Soare
  2009-11-20 14:25 ` Stefan Monnier
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: A. Soare @ 2009-11-20 11:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Juri Linkov; +Cc: Emacs   Dev  [emacs-devel]


> Good news that you have implemented GTK and console part of the tabs
> implementation as I have implemented only the non-toolkit part.
> 
> Any chance to merge with your code soon?
> 

I will reopen the archives in the first half of the next year. Until then, I do not have time.




Alin.





____________________________________________________

Gagnez un séjour au Maroc en découvrant les sketchs désopilants des ReVoila sur http://www.lesrevoila.fr/







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
  2009-11-20 11:52 A. Soare
@ 2009-11-20 14:25 ` Stefan Monnier
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2009-11-20 14:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: alinsoar; +Cc: Juri Linkov, Emacs Dev [emacs-devel]

>> Good news that you have implemented GTK and console part of the tabs
>> implementation as I have implemented only the non-toolkit part.
>> Any chance to merge with your code soon?
> I will reopen the archives in the first half of the next year. Until
> then, I do not have time.

Why don't you send you patch here so others can look at it and maybe
work on it if they have the time (and inclination)?


        Stefan






^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

* Re: Tabs in Emacs?
@ 2009-11-20 14:32 A. Soare
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: A. Soare @ 2009-11-20 14:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: Emacs   Dev  [emacs-devel]

> 
> Why don't you send you patch here so others can look at it and maybe
> work on it if they have the time (and inclination)?

I have changed the definition of a frame, and I was into the point to replace everywhere FOR_EACH_FRAME with the new correct form.

I do not want to send the code before I replace it everywhere where it must be replaced, and this will be some work.



Alin.




____________________________________________________

Gagnez un séjour au Maroc en découvrant les sketchs désopilants des ReVoila sur http://www.lesrevoila.fr/







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2009-11-20 14:32 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 30+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2009-11-17 12:26 Tabs in Emacs? Angelo Graziosi
2009-11-17 13:32 ` Deniz Dogan
2009-11-17 13:59   ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
2009-11-17 14:47     ` Miles Bader
2009-11-18  9:40       ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
2009-11-18  9:52         ` Miles Bader
2009-11-18 10:19           ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
2009-11-18 19:08             ` Juri Linkov
2009-11-18 14:56           ` AW: AW: " Stefan Monnier
2009-11-18 19:19             ` joakim
2009-11-17 16:09     ` Jason Rumney
2009-11-18  8:49       ` AW: " Berndl, Klaus
2009-11-18  9:26         ` Teemu Likonen
2009-11-18  9:30           ` Miles Bader
2009-11-18  9:28       ` AW: " Miles Bader
2009-11-17 17:52     ` Juri Linkov
2009-11-17 17:54     ` AW: " David Reitter
2009-11-17 19:15       ` Eli Zaretskii
2009-11-17 17:41   ` Angelo Graziosi
2009-11-17 23:43   ` Xavier Maillard
2009-11-18  1:57     ` Miles Bader
2009-11-18 17:20       ` Xavier Maillard
2009-11-18 19:12         ` Juri Linkov
2009-11-18  3:30     ` Stefan Monnier
2009-11-17 18:37 ` Andrey Paramonov
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2009-11-20 11:05 A. Soare
2009-11-20 11:12 ` Juri Linkov
2009-11-20 11:52 A. Soare
2009-11-20 14:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2009-11-20 14:32 A. Soare

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