From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why does the tutorial talk about C-n/C-p etc? Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:07:26 +0000 Message-ID: <87io0u4bip.fsf@russet.org.uk> References: <87y49q64eg.fsf@russet.org.uk> <837fhamxwq.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1457622491 4549 80.91.229.3 (10 Mar 2016 15:08:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:08:11 +0000 (UTC) Cc: larsi@gnus.org, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 10 16:07:59 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ae2Bu-00015H-Rh for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:07:54 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49027 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ae2Bu-0005No-5U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 10:07:54 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56351) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ae2Bl-0005NS-Ij for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 10:07:51 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ae2Bg-0005c8-JK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 10:07:45 -0500 Original-Received: from cloud103.planethippo.com ([31.216.48.48]:40044) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ae2BU-0005aG-GQ; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 10:07:28 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=russet.org.uk; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID: In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:Cc:To:From; bh=d2kRGdIXKgPjckz99AdSV8cI0HpMMNSm6VR1Kxz5IMM=; b=15tYt3nJ9L5rH/9q3mg/v64vXJ O3PTH9P91Gc2SU/3PvvPbvuh+4Hey/+rAcwVR/2CDn+/rReX95ynhc6fV0M1IezgAv5KZjQthUNQW 4O4My+lpK+TwDP1E7o6efWNieyIWu5ptz/76f0NNunQ/zv9S9xznTUl6xdARTj4CrWa/ciagCNVC4 hMrz/bkuibWTWL0t/hr3dD9HZsYtsD6VZY9cG5CfSR5xYtDWH4U5S3+6uBTVujt33jQkMFchYdiC+ UuQVVo0GBy4GXgYPKY/nLRiusMHqFOiiqrqH5DxdW5jeEgz6wB6eKa5/YH9nGpA7rOXvcNFs4cm0F nCXviG/Q==; Original-Received: from janus-nat-128-240-225-60.ncl.ac.uk ([128.240.225.60]:57882 helo=russet.org.uk) by cloud103.planethippo.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1ae2BT-003LEF-BB; Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:07:27 +0000 In-Reply-To: <837fhamxwq.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:26:29 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cloud103.planethippo.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - russet.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cloud103.planethippo.com: authenticated_id: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cloud103.planethippo.com: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 31.216.48.48 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:201391 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) >> Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 09:58:15 +0000 >> Cc: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> The point of a tutorial is not to teach people to become brilliantly >> efficent power users. It's to get them going, and to see the advantages >> as quickly as possible. > > What do you suggest we teach them about the arrows that they don't > already know? What I suggest is that we don't teach them the arrow keys are not the way to move the cursor around. This is what the tutorial does at the moment. Currently, we have on L40 (ish): The first thing that you need to know is how to move around from place to place in the text. L65: You can use the PageUp and PageDn keys L76: You can use the arrow keys Seriously? New users already know to how move around from place to place. It's like being a driving instructor and starting off with how to open the door, or how to sit in the chair. Other gems include: M- means hold the META or EDIT or ALT META or EDIT? Seriously? Before ALT which is what everyone has. L235: If you are using a graphical display, such as X or MS-Windows, there should be a tall rectangular area called a scroll bar on one side of the Emacs window. If you are using a graphical display? I mean, of course, you are using a graphical display? L238: If Emacs stops responding i.e. if it's broken Then disabled commands L277: Emacs can have several "windows" An application with windows? Really? Oh, but we don't mean windows, we mean something else. It's okay, that's explained: L893: Note that Emacs uses the term "frames"--described in the next section--for what some other applications call "windows" Yes, on L893. The tutorial is not wrong, nor is it missing anything. It's just didactically from a different time, and I am sure it's putting many people off. Phil