From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?Q?K=C3=A9vin_Le_Gouguec?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 09:20:50 +0200 Message-ID: <87imhlwg19.fsf@gmail.com> References: <20200426172206.GC18629@ACM> <87y2qhnc9a.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="19299"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Stefan Kangas , Stefan Monnier , Emacs developers To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 27 09:22:30 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jSy62-0004vE-42 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 09:22:30 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55040 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSy61-0004GP-5F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 03:22:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37674) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSy4f-0002hD-0I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 03:21:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSy4U-0004hD-SC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 03:21:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x433.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::433]:46858) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSy4U-0004g6-EG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 03:20:54 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x433.google.com with SMTP id f13so19159761wrm.13 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 00:20:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wbH8gHGXuMWaIiiWCk5Fa4DrW+8pic/W9/LCpkl27H0=; b=KGZLVtKHQo1PrHKtsapdNTq2J1nMelsvTzji5cI3Tpc2CQzyggaAQGk0j+TAZ+fQLJ 6IXOoCMUntp50e5+dzD+IzF9W/RXh69BJ7LjNltxNpTKt8LQ2ht2mEJVV+aaJqs6V+I+ RuoLgBYssE1La1owrq+WYIofXRgnwhv5ECyCr6SLGFTdqUo0DSEbu5R2Gj3+bk6UmFGK JhW5frGsEwb7Sb+0tOghkFskWCGa4nPElRw9iJxDMyGdIs+WvfJH90QB30dYhX4z2Ok4 UdN6p4MaQ2j01p2sAbEEXHgJwiHmtxYSYmS4+qMb67LE0ZWSmKK7za3OAQC1CaOVRwH5 5qGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wbH8gHGXuMWaIiiWCk5Fa4DrW+8pic/W9/LCpkl27H0=; b=cHMuU2dNgHS/c3zQwQgPDSWk8Gag2F4fwSRvkVR9aytrZQ7oGlnfwiM0PJQhU3LGpr n+Nps/JfBPHCpmjKbR/AhUz3QdoOR8bKzCiaYJVt22bKXZePjF/mRhkRycUOXS+NqASR vwpmldZTk9GPutHjzZckYRyHUXPLHxsH51vqMZcr/Dr4hwlV086uCc+MVQprjIBq3+21 pa01kriZtsoRSgQe6Z0PrG5kqJCfEEA/mC6g1N2ltdyS0zSDKbSJmu6eMrcQmNdQF10w /nQ8A+HUX5MN2KbMxMC2DDk7KSh5CNg1KekLRGxe/mHujmkTyAEYdpQwEUphVxlgP373 3lNA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubJlRU+jpJU1jEHy1ivpcOJnSpN//K82iz21VlNfsqM8VDfIpw7 hyQWm/TxjoPkob+z1ppPx7M9IbDGV6/joQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK3cgm9kNaw1mvRfYARWRTbg4JPRIXU18FEIsBYrQSju9HdLuCBCdEuJZK24HL3/PTL6Pv/wg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:df8d:: with SMTP id z13mr25830901wrl.304.1587972052747; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 00:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from my-little-tumbleweed (200.143.13.109.rev.sfr.net. [109.13.143.200]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y70sm15314440wmc.36.2020.04.27.00.20.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 27 Apr 2020 00:20:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: (Drew Adams's message of "Sun, 26 Apr 2020 15:41:14 -0700 (PDT)") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::433; envelope-from=kevin.legouguec@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x433.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::433 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247892 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: >> > I don't think I will ever manage to remember any of >> > the keybindings for the outline-(show|hide)-=E2=80=A6 functions, >>=20 >> For this reason I implemented `reveal-mode` ;-) > > 1. FWIW, both Org Mode and Outline Mode offer > all anyone needs to know about showing/hiding, > navigating, etc. - in the menu-bar menus. > > I can't understand people lamenting an ability > to remember key bindings. Especially veteran > users - they should know how to ask Emacs. > > If you're in a mode you don't understand well, > use `C-h m' or `C-h b'. If such help isn't > good enough then we should improve it. > > And any veteran Emacs user should expect that > an important or longstanding major mode probably > also has one or more menu-bar menus, which can > help with key bindings. Yup, those (menus, C-h m, C-h b; in this specific case C-c C-h also works nicely) are what I was referring to as "cheatsheets": >> > I don't think I will ever manage to remember any of the >> > keybindings for the outline-(show|hide)-=E2=80=A6 functions, which mea= ns >> > I will never be able to use the "selective display" feature >> > advertised in outline-mode's docstring without a cheatsheet. The point being that yes, hopefully Emacs users can find their way to a menu or a help buffer; but as org-mode shows we can aim for something slightly more ergonomic. If I have to whip these cheatsheets out every time I want to hide a heading (which I used to do before I finally bound outline-toggle-children to TAB), I might as well do away with keybindings and just M-x outline-hide- TAB *squint* (or install which-key and C-c *squint*). > 2. It sounds like trivially adding TAB as a key > for cycling among items in Outline mode would, > regardless of what mode is used for NEWS, be a > good idea. And such a lame argument shouldn't > be put forward as a reason to switch to Org mode > for NEWS. (I'm not saying anything here about > which mode should be used for NEWS.) Wholehearted agreement here.