From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 16:54:55 +0800 Message-ID: <87imbf7rj4.fsf@localhost> References: <20201011073553.GA6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201011120840.GC2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201011125031.GC6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201012050418.GZ2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201012062916.GB2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <87r1q37ubv.fsf@localhost> <20201012083451.GH2923@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29652"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , Thibaut Verron , emacs-devel To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 12 10:57:04 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kRtdg-0007bp-3r for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 10:57:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33218 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRtdf-0000R8-6Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 04:57:03 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58632) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRtck-0008Pz-GR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 04:56:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x62d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d]:42845) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRtcg-0002q3-Ks; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 04:56:06 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x62d.google.com with SMTP id c6so8215522plr.9; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 01:56:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version; bh=KUc+MYHW2GU8ZCxKJmcJTVQQGBbHYK8gRL4YqD4T6I0=; b=FNRHJSv5a3QNB5gleslIPsog7BkjFbcx4Ia518NYKsNO0AAqa95WkJn30DzIBuL9ny KIj6LEaYfr/FkxVQyJaMb9/wYNyDHP9baJdVh/JD6bHmLDIi+l8ni/pOQbG71T6VtI7g 1lN4UJi4Xp+4S4nKwH7auYXfFzp8XUDJglYsd+RvBGyV3ZPS9qWUgAqxOviqs7hZS4ic ODsvglKmIehGbE+/qlhsbDc3MP+sR37jMVukiVB+gpR0hnm1F8lvCjOYvMfaauYCLZTA OuoxQzY/Au4naZ7gT/5S6VBnPAMEmK3lcNXSF3RjR06vIsj23S7LO6asIyroBXRC2WlK FGmg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version; bh=KUc+MYHW2GU8ZCxKJmcJTVQQGBbHYK8gRL4YqD4T6I0=; b=GERarhBiG6f8osHlQS9ArPfgyOcLxYgNnKSriNVjm8tXu9ookZ7hh2ZU3qD4DpIUP/ 0CY0BuvfZwoSAKaaS//+hG1wCDxhJQ2kh1hBZTWLk0G6il1GSRZGQVOcnxApjLozUwVi Ej3irwUe5Yc5/PdnyVdu/uv/anLgCzStMvl1B9kdMklP7erjYQXKlgd8mhsbN1d2JMBX MSpfCeXvkEx9Iiic5LZOqCi03SqoRXfcKdRluJpPF8SncReUqJpRpwGRkVKw7zsXJvrR 0tYn4M2zBUCKgKTy3oElPxhyrNVEhpAwThBOgQZf/ZeSsIC+FZUCIsHsbEDZSZDkgc/r 49PA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530bEJwkfBOKVu5X0CUOPt/vMdbGiG6squ408u0JKlgmwaEGaF9T S7Nk3m3O5nxomXAv5jstJbQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwDdoNxYiEyjDbMLWWsStmPfOeHNRgsk9CQCb7Qssizi274AuhoRUwJKtFU0f7YR8vRw7D6Ig== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:d355:b029:d4:d88c:ded9 with SMTP id l21-20020a170902d355b02900d4d88cded9mr5567187plk.13.1602492960355; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 01:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([104.250.131.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x1sm23546205pjd.10.2020.10.12.01.55.58 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 12 Oct 2020 01:55:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20201012083451.GH2923@protected.rcdrun.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x62d.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257455 Archived-At: > Let us say you wish to ask if users are using MELPA or what else? > There is nothing else to compare. At least we can get ratio between people using MELPA vs. not using MELPA. As I stated, it might be useful later, when we have nongnu ELPA. Or it might, for example, reveal that most of Emacs users are actually not using MELPA (though I don't believe that it is the case). Note that I am not arguing that we have to include this question in this specific poll (there will be many other valuable inputs regardless of this question). Just wanted to point out that MELPA statistics will not answer the question what fraction of users are _not_ using MELPA. If that fraction is significant (unlikely), taking only MELPA statistics might be not representative. Best, Ihor Jean Louis writes: > * Ihor Radchenko [2020-10-12 10:56]: >> > Reason for that is that it is obvious that people do, people ARE using >> > MELPA and Marmalade software repositories; AND more important reason >> > not to ask is that information about usage of those repositories, >> > likes, number of contributors, it is already available on the >> > Microsoft Github "Insights" link on the MELPA page. There is no point >> > in asking users what is already obvious. There are stars or likes on >> > Github. >> >> I disagree that there is no point asking. Assuming that we are >> interested to know about MELPA/Marmalade usage, taking information about >> usage/stars/contributors/etc from third-party sources will represent >> different subset of Emacs users - it cannot be compared with other >> results of the presently discussed poll. >> >> All the MELPA/marmalade statistics is inherently biased. It only >> represents Emacs users using those repositories. On the other hand, >> asking about package repositories in this poll will provide us with a >> concrete estimate how popular are MELPA and Mermalade. In future, when >> nongnu ELPA is going to be up and running for a while, it may also be >> interesting to see how the popularity changes. > > When doing an opinion poll, it involves investment of money, time, > efforts, people, so the answers have to be evaluated with purpose to > do something. > > Marmalade is anyway not working any more. > > Let us say you wish to ask if users are using MELPA or what else? > There is nothing else to compare. > > ELPA is already built-in, there is no other package repository. Now > you wish to find statistical information how many users use MELPA, but > why not simply ask MELPA developers to provide such statistic? They > probably have statistics of downloads or accesses to the > website. There is no point to asking around the corner, when one can > ask directly. > > Let us say one wish to evaluate which packages are more popular, you > can take a list of package from MELPA, then run Emacs Lisp through the > list, and then probably use Github API or web scraper, you can find > which package has more stars/likes or number of forks. Similar results > you can get from Github search. None of results, neither survey > results nor Github API/search results are correct results, so it would > be expensive making survey in that way. > > So, for number of MELPA downloads, anybody wishing to find out, one > can ask there. Another question how they are evaluating the website > statistics. But for which practical use?! > > For popularity of various packages, it is possible to use API (I just > guess so) or web scraper, and obtain statistical information. But for > which practical use?! > > Most practical is when user reports a bug, then it can be solved, or > user reports enhancement to software, it could be implemented. > > This mailing list is a small survey itself, help-gnu-emacs mailing > list as well, various answers on non-GNU websites also represent > valuable data for improvements, at this moment there is so much data > that demands improvements. > > Jean