From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: access to ELPA development packages? Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 20:52:05 +0000 Message-ID: <87im0wztl6.fsf@posteo.net> References: <868s1z42nz.fsf@stephe-leake.org> <864kcm4hf7.fsf@stephe-leake.org> <87lf5xi945.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30606"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: bozhidar@batsov.dev, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 26 22:52:48 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1m87ai-0007iJ-Ex for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:52:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56656 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m87ag-0006f3-Om for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 26 Jul 2021 16:52:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59380) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m87aA-00060l-C4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Jul 2021 16:52:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:54047) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m87a6-0002aS-2O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Jul 2021 16:52:13 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AEB5C240026 for ; Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:52:07 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1627332727; bh=u9R6zS4sTarowuIG75pa5rPwM5hLMgRvuBoBjESgFCE=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:Date:From; b=mz9UQnKTM6q5NwdYsoKvJhxqp0YzkN4i+p5PWwXdXbw/fn3PYR2TlshpPKHU+sfx9 jLx/hetGSk/mJXheBPGu2JioX/boxFzi6Ql+QInU0hX86RPVEMOPXHWMRrs8aOT6SJ /u92CZ5mz5nQuarSTjNwPDZMiglMCA63bIZwxd/lkg7lIjyEeBWlI5GzB4YTHW+Ynk z5eXLlCmWn9rlldl6gaAtpb4tLpSMr+CyG8i5MpQ/gTRZ9DfUcvKZSwEq7umtCZoaq 7jpcJwbW8aBNQYUJ5ZmD6AFwj24sC6eOwWFV5PEJHhO4mkS0NorTt5iyUH/E/A0qlg hkeNNondYHGug== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4GYXD65xPxz9rxF; Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:52:06 +0200 (CEST) Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mDMEYHHqUhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAp3GdmYJ6tm5McweY6dEvIYIiry+Oz9rU4MH6NHWK0Ee0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiQBBMWCAA4FiEEDM2H44ZoPt9Ms0eHtVrAHPRh1FwFAmBx6lICGwMFCwkIBwIGFQoJ CAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQtVrAHPRh1FyTkgEAjlbGPxFchvMbxzAES3r8QLuZgCxeAXunM9gh io0ePtUBALVhh9G6wIoZhl0gUCbQpoN/UJHI08Gm1qDob5zDxnIHuDgEYHHqUhIKKwYBBAGXVQEF AQEHQNcRB+MUimTMqoxxMMUERpOR+Q4b1KgncDZkhrO2ql1tAwEIB4h4BBgWCAAgFiEEDM2H44Zo Pt9Ms0eHtVrAHPRh1FwFAmBx6lICGwwACgkQtVrAHPRh1Fw1JwD/Qo7kvtib8jy7puyWrSv0MeTS g8qIxgoRWJE/KKdkCLEA/jb9b9/g8nnX+UcwHf/4VfKsjExlnND3FrBviXUW6NcB In-Reply-To: (Richard Stallman's message of "Sun, 25 Jul 2021 20:16:38 -0400") Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:271672 Archived-At: Richard Stallman writes: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > I fear that promoting the devel repo might have people use it even if > > they don't have to, leading to the same kinds of issues that MELPA has. > > I don't know whether this is a valid concern, but I think the issue is > important enough that we need to discuss whether it is a valid concern. > > Could you please explain the problematical usage scenario that you > have in mind? MELPA primarily advertises the non-stable channel, that creates a new package version for commit in a package repository (like ELPA devel). The problems that arise from this is that different users receive more or less random snapshots, which is especially critical when packages depend on one another, updating packages involves a lot more "luck" than should be necessary. I think the argument has been insinuated in this thread, that this makes it easier to catch bugs early, but I don't think every user should have to deal with that (after all, any freedom, including software freedom, should also include the freedom to say "no"). And setting that aside, package.el doesn't provide a good basis for development and contributing -- if you want to do more than debugging or changing something that should be more persistent, you'll have to clone the source manually. Two issues specific to MELPA is that a lot of "stable" packages depend on "unstable" packages, that might have not received a stable release, or marked as such (MELPA requires manual tagging of releases using git tags), so that some packages just do not release stable versions at all, splitting the repository. The second issue is that MELPA (unstable) generates version tags directly from the commit data, resulting in versions like "20210721.2003". ELPA devel handles this better by appending the date to the actual version: "0.9.13.0.20210721.211455" (both of these version tags were taken from the company package). This makes switching between repositories easer to handle. For most users, there is simply no reason to deal with the devel repository. And speaking from experience, when someone starts dealing with Emacs, they are very likely to just copy random code off blogs and fora until something appears to work. Having development versions of ELPA advertised with ready-to-copy code will just break stuff. I guess mentioning it doesn't inherently pose an issue. Either way, the reason I am interested in seeing GNU and NonGNU ELPA is that this incentives stable package releases as the default mode of operation, so that is where I am coming from with this line of argumentation. -- Philip Kaludercic