From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Keybinding styles (was: [External] : Re: Gitlab Migration) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 06:48:14 +1000 Message-ID: <87ilzgnjvk.fsf@gmail.com> References: <87lf4dnk0z.fsf@gmail.com> <90277C17-5C44-411F-A43A-EFCA9C0B7345@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="26005"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.7.0; emacs 27.2.50 Cc: Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Yuan Fu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 04 22:54:02 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mMcfk-0006QA-TO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 22:54:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40042 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMcfj-0005NV-UI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 16:53:55 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57972) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMcek-0003IY-BD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 16:52:54 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x62e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e]:33640) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMcei-0005TD-OT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 16:52:54 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id k17so1639042pls.0 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 13:52:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gV+Kjd5rIU6kW+fwz44tBJoe3qVvSzDmOhXThA9Fj0c=; b=k7UGrxputwW1PXuyCBvTdMqjiyP+QVtqe1RwrnbsqkdOBe2IllKtcvHgbY+eIxLew7 O5fg9t6dOFDNt7FisRg7ST24A2SUaF2LsEj7vd5+iS+EBXVefetpm+LbNn52+9OxdzOo MbJnsfl7QabiO9ehFJCoLvTDmg7EddK+DTe5z3jHtXaJ95GsjAq7v0BiqRI2eob5Bc7V yoGSgZ/MHQ6Ijw2mM3XHwo0gxkGARPmeKnWdSOqF3IsfRgxjU0vX7w0GA/ykpPCfh8Et ZWKGNWaSyyhWykRM8G1XN1B3WQo83tghPRdp3u2U0ttcOAovEsiuEI2ynsTC8Wig3wWf 7BXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gV+Kjd5rIU6kW+fwz44tBJoe3qVvSzDmOhXThA9Fj0c=; b=SDCgBQp9M8eV2fC7t64FcAmPISW7UEHQTCG/qPWySM+zmLPdfstzlC6bd/S1k/zfKU E+Btdug4zpQfFx+MFVzCHUAyg6m8wzdsWgxr6Kq7rgrM9X0eAXXAs3QrctaL0wZn3KdP yg233u2FZgjNuUAMaOsI7d2xaOSIfRPfwS7hvS4ksbrOQlZp+16k+snGchyX3f2uJ0Mk YRI/SlfrgU64rRav1IU1ca2jAB6EPjRLbqTcMDg1GABXvIcJ2wwbOGdus6jBVWSL/Tpt yn4xdHvDGfDVExTxfXQGHdNwp8TTbkNSjE4raHEleMLj9UY+Pp/nPxIiG6rYHv27g4n0 mawg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533qMl+qjSx7brD/bBKsP5ysr4h64njC3kUpj9d9tHKmrzAa9xYE eyjIl2ZFqHYQ20aRG6enkt/7Vs1qANs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJvpu1eBfZEQjY0MaWoRd6eJUAfAx/WtmGRntIjMFUqeT7ZSvWNMG2/IG2grnuHaGZMiFGig== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:f0c2:: with SMTP id fa2mr5744009pjb.7.1630788771218; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 13:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from tim-desktop (220-235-1-77.dyn.iinet.net.au. [220.235.1.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z8sm3052565pfa.113.2021.09.04.13.52.49 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 04 Sep 2021 13:52:50 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: <90277C17-5C44-411F-A43A-EFCA9C0B7345@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62e; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x62e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273966 Archived-At: Yuan Fu writes: >> On Sep 4, 2021, at 6:26 AM, Stefan Monnier wr= ote: >>=20 >>> This would probably be a good candidate for the profiles idea. >>=20 >> FWIW, binding `kill-region` to `C-x` (and `copy-region-as-kill` to >> `C-c`) is a hard problem in Emacs. `cua-mode` tackles it in a pragmatic >> way, and it's pretty good at it, but it comes with enough caveats that >> I don't think it's a satisfactory solution. >>=20 >> If people are serious about trying to make Emacs easier for newcomers >> accustomed to other tools, I think it might be worth developing >> a package which starts with those C-` bindings and works its way >> to create a complete new set of keybindings. >>=20 >> It's a work comparable to what is done for god-mode, Evil, etc... where >> you'll need to have ad-hoc tweaks for many (most?all?) modes. >> So it's a long-term maintenance challenge. >>=20 >> I keep wishing someone came up with a clever way for modes to specify >> their key-bindings in such a way that Emacs can automatically derive from >> it the keys to use "normally" as well as the keys to use in Evil or the >> keys to use in god-mode, or the keys to use in this hypothetical new >> `really-cua-mode`, ... >> So as to finally address this long-term maintenance challenge. >>=20 > > On Mac I never had the problem because C-x/c/v and other system shortcuts= are > bound to the Command key, not Control. So I can use Emacs bindings with C= ontrol > and system shortcuts with Command. Can we do the same in Windows and Linu= x? We > can use the win key as Control for Emacs=E2=80=94seems that was where the= Control key > back in the day anyway. > The problem I see with this approach is that many desktop environments have already adopted using the 'wind' key for window manager shortcuts. I've seen many 'problems' for new users where the documented key binding does not appear to work when what is actually happening is that the window manager is steeling the key presses, so emacs never sees them. Therefore, I think adopting use of the win key could just increase confusion.=20=20