From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Unboxed package manager Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 16:53:24 +0000 Message-ID: <87ilev9xff.fsf@posteo.net> References: <57668895-8EEA-44F7-BD46-9CDFAA11FD2C@gmail.com> <87zg87saw8.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28349"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Yuan Fu , emacs-devel To: Lynn Winebarger Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Mar 20 17:54:05 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1peIlo-00076i-SS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:54:04 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1peIlH-0003t6-G1; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 12:53:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1peIlF-0003sS-N9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 12:53:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1peIlD-0000dL-Op for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 12:53:29 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6F98240372 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:53:25 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1679331205; bh=uhPcrAPblf59qn260omWP6MQrngvH8D5HXjt+/845pU=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:Date:From; b=Mf3NzNapUbb4QLiWE9AIxPLkDifK3fDzQpmKH2od/K4bT0fGETnVQdXpELFMWZPDc fkNHcBJHEFfIUI3/Q+8zeYrBQGv0NClWxim4D7uqewF/SX95vyHI07x+7FzGsCbL55 2aLwgNIxlSc0+Rq5XGNILVg9hJm4p6TUVhprse73CZFDiW5Pl4g3yFlaraLXiLcn1X AargoWTMfxrHfxg5IRaFm5DX9WycgrAXdj3EXHrdOPeQy1J77vxCPc2Gb/P++JRq3c oOfBgTL+euhtVpOviAF7kKTFSwsRz5eU27cefkMqcNieU0hywtWzSVl4PhcU0dtgcS 1+ncim0cfiW1A== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4PgLQs1l1Pz6tmS; Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:53:25 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: (Lynn Winebarger's message of "Mon, 20 Mar 2023 12:12:34 -0400") Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:304610 Archived-At: Lynn Winebarger writes: > On Mon, Mar 20, 2023, 11:25 AM Philip Kaludercic wrote: > >> Lynn Winebarger writes: >> >> > On Mon, Mar 20, 2023, 4:55 AM Lynn Winebarger >> wrote: >> > >> >> On Mon, Mar 20, 2023, 2:31 AM Yuan Fu wrote: >> >> >> >>> > On Mar 19, 2023, at 6:18 PM, Lynn Winebarger >> >>> wrote: >> >>> > >> >>> > I've >> >>> > done this manually on various systems I use with a significant >> >>> > improvement in startup performance. >> >>> >> >>> It'll be interesting to see the numbers on the improvement. How much >> does >> >>> it improve startup time if there is x packages and y are loaded at >> startup >> >>> time? >> >> >> >> Good question. The systems I've done this manually on are one-off builds >> >> of 28.x on sandboxed systems where the system emacs is 24.3. So, I >> didn't >> >> have to worry about managing package updates with any frequency. >> > >> > I don't have any hard measurements, but my recollection is that >> installing >> > ~1200 packages on those systems and "loading the world" took something >> like >> > 5 minutes, while a similar set of packages installed in a unified >> directory >> > takes about 1.5 minutes. >> >> I just skimmed through the initial message, and when reading this my >> initial thought is does the the advantage justify effort/complexity, >> considering that most users have an order of magnitude fewer packages >> installed (of which a few are installed using package-vc which IIUC >> would explicitly not want to make use of this feature). >> > > I have no idea. There's a bit of a chicken and egg problem when installing > packages is slow (even with a local mirror of the elpas) and having a lot > of packages loaded slows down startup. What is the chicken and the egg in this situation? > I think I'm going to hack something together starting with advice on the > existing package management and taking some inspiration from the design of > Jonas Bernoulli's epkg and emir packages for tracking installed packages > and component files in a SQLite database. I'd be interested to see how this looks like. As I said, I am sceptical of the need to optimise these extreme cases for everyone, but perhaps we can also open package.el to be extended externally in ways that your work could plug into. > Lynn (Also, could you leave an empty line between paragraphs in your messages? It would make it easier to read them) -- Philip Kaludercic