From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Tree-sitter maturity Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 15:02:51 +0000 Message-ID: <87ikr5rwx0.fsf@posteo.net> References: <1ed88fca-788a-fe9f-b6c8-edb2f49751c9@mavit.org.uk> <67428b3d.c80a0220.2f3036.adbdSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <86ldwdm7xg.fsf@gnu.org> <6765355b.c80a0220.1a6b24.3117SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com> <00554790-CACA-4233-8846-9E091CF1F7AA@gmail.com> <86msgl2red.fsf@gnu.org> <87o710sr7y.fsf@debian-hx90.lan> <8734i9tmze.fsf@posteo.net> <86plldwb7w.fsf@gnu.org> <87ttapryxr.fsf@posteo.net> <0883EB00-3BB2-4BC8-95D1-45F4497C0526@dancol.org> <87plldrx6a.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28157"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org, manphiz@gmail.com To: Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 27 16:03:15 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tRBru-0007AE-Iy for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 27 Dec 2024 16:03:14 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tRBre-0005CT-Tr; Fri, 27 Dec 2024 10:02:58 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tRBrd-0005CI-9q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Dec 2024 10:02:57 -0500 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1tRBrb-0007mD-ED for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Dec 2024 10:02:57 -0500 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A97C240027 for ; Fri, 27 Dec 2024 16:02:52 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1735311773; bh=p/hy+Q2bsvDARqJmpTO9EuJvTe22YlKxOrX1vLOD1o8=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:OpenPGP:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:From; b=fN38YcQRaw2BqafGkyHfC9H4owyXfQauXw/ZCaa6Duhqk7t4VMfrkiZs5yeVtPTBg X4KUkCQMhrhi4iQrbOrJL2xEgwhuw5Axn8dAPiPoqMAXXywodDaJPwkCUTP/XfAGcX q5EUFGDHXVwIg3MSXoYpPP51oqyLuOMzTXOEZcQS8iLMYVAYtuPLCjv+r/xYSgVUN5 Gp7nz5meesb6q2dg946ARGFMWWnOlHw7+qJg4GHD/LOi0gHQ4M24oRQInuXU4V3TF+ G9ssEQsUqZFoY5nAQJNJJBBG2ROLj9HA9cvZKZ0o+BA4ikEXxDFM4+FrYnC0r2jTBT jM2C0ITgVVuFw== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4YKTJC2ZtLz9rxB; Fri, 27 Dec 2024 16:02:51 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <87plldrx6a.fsf@posteo.net> (Philip Kaludercic's message of "Fri, 27 Dec 2024 15:57:17 +0100") Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM OpenPGP: id=7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66; url="https://keys.openpgp.org/vks/v1/by-fingerprint/7126E1DE2F0CE35C770BED01F2C3CC513DB89F66"; preference=signencrypt Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:327199 Archived-At: Philip Kaludercic writes: > Daniel Colascione writes: > >> On December 27, 2024 9:19:12 AM EST, Philip Kaludercic wrote: >>>Daniel Colascione writes: >>> >>>> On December 27, 2024 7:40:19 AM EST, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >>>>>> From: Philip Kaludercic >>>>>> Cc: Xiyue Deng , emacs-devel@gnu.org >>>>>> Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2024 10:54:29 +0000 >>>>>> >>>>>> Richard Stallman writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > If we add something like this to Emacs, there is an issue we need to >>>>>> > take care about: to make carefully sure that it does not install >>>>>> > any nonfree grammars. I don't know how those grammars are released, >>>>>> > ir by whom, or how much they care about free software. We can't >>>>>> > take for granted that they do. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Perhaps we could check automatically that the grammar found is properly >>>>>> > licenses, and disregard any grammars that are not free. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > By contrast, if grammars are going to be packaged and released for >>>>>> > distros, and chosen for installation by users, then it is the user's >>>>>> > responsibility, not Emacs's responsibility, to reject the nonfree ones >>>>>> > (and the GNU/Linux distro might insist on that). >>>>>> >>>>>> It might take a while for that to happen, which is why I still believe >>>>>> it would be better if tree-sitter major modes would populate >>>>>> `treesit-language-source-alist' on their own, and point to the specific >>>>>> checkouts that the major mode developer tested their implementation >>>>>> against. >>>>> >>>>>We could have done that, but there's no way we could keep the value of >>>>>treesit-language-source-alist up-to-date, because the grammar >>>>>libraries put out new versions much more frequently than Emacs >>>>>releases, especially if you consider libraries that have no official >>>>>versions at all (in which case we can only point to some revision in >>>>>their repository). >>>>> >>>>>The question that bothers me is how useful is it to have >>>>>treesit-language-source-alist that is outdated? What do we expect the >>>>>users to do with such an outdated value? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Why not just vendor all the grammars with the Emacs modes that use them? >>> >>>I am guessing part of the reason is that TS grammars are not fun to >>>build. IIRC they are specified in a Javascript DSL (that used to >>>require node.js but AFAIU works with other implementations as well), >>>that a program written in Rust translates to C code. So do we vendor >>>the DSL and depend on the TreeSitter toolchain or do we vender the >>>generated code? >> >> It's a shame there's no way to write TS grammars in plain elisp. I >> figure vendoring both the source and the generated code would be best, >> as it'd allow building Emacs anywhere but still make it convenient on >> systems with needed tools (JS runtime, Rust, etc.) to update and >> modify the grammar. As with any scheme involving checking in generated >> outputs, the source and output can get out of sync, but I think there >> are build time guardrails we can build to make sure it doesn't happen. > > Writing the grammar in Elisp would require both a new toolchain and the > effort of rewriting all the existing grammars in Elisp. My > understanding of the benefit that TS intends to provide, is that the > manpower invested into writing grammars that deal with all the > edge-cases which traditional regexp/heuristic parsing had difficulties > with. > > There is also the general point of helping to realise software freedom, > where a -ts-mode makes it much more difficult (though of course not > impossible) to adjust a grammar. Wasn't there some complication when > trying to reload a grammar? The additional dependencies and the > indirect effect of changes compared with Elisp is something we should be > concerned about when trying to maintain "the spirit of Emacs" (which of > course means different things to different people). > > Vendoring might help to reproduce builds if that turns out to be a big > issue, but I am not a fan of the additional hurdles in making use of the > source code. Does anyone know of alternative, less invested > build-chain the re-uses the libtree-sitter.so library. Oh, and another point I have been reminded of while writing this: The recent addition of more and more -ts-modes without "regular" -modes has been slightly concerning. While I understand that re-implementing a "lua-mode" or "php-mode" from scratch is not an effort one wants to impose on anymore, simpler files such as dockerfile-mode or go-mod-mode /without/ Tree Sitter would be a nice thing to have for people on systems without Tree Sitter, or without the ability to download and build code from GitHub (e.g. missing internet access, without Git/GCC, without the necessary development libraries). Even if the experience were degraded, just re-using the keywords to provide some basic highlighting would be a nice fallback.