From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Lisp's future Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 18:45:09 +0900 Message-ID: <87h9z8nw0q.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <87d2ahm3nw.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <871tqneyvl.fsf@netris.org> <87zjd9swfj.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87oatnqpml.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <874mvdrj45.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <20141009044917.GA19957@fencepost.gnu.org> <83lhopisfr.fsf@gnu.org> <87ppe1pldu.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8761ft5wpo.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83k349b0vj.fsf@gnu.org> <83bnph96kh.fsf@gnu.org> <87ppdwo7ll.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83y4sk7biu.fsf@gnu.org> <87k344nzqw.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <8761foz6pi.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1413193556 32595 80.91.229.3 (13 Oct 2014 09:45:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 09:45:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, mikegerwitz@gnu.org, mhw@netris.org, dmantipov@yandex.ru, emacs-devel@gnu.org, handa@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, Eli Zaretskii To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 13 11:45:48 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XdcCK-0005Cp-II for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 13 Oct 2014 11:45:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60995 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XdcCK-0008Ep-50 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 13 Oct 2014 05:45:48 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:48263) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XdcC9-0008EB-CA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Oct 2014 05:45:44 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XdcC1-0002yg-PX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Oct 2014 05:45:37 -0400 Original-Received: from shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.97.161]:48437) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XdcBk-0002tF-Lk; Mon, 13 Oct 2014 05:45:12 -0400 Original-Received: from uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp [130.158.99.156]) by shako.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id E59691C3996; Mon, 13 Oct 2014 18:45:09 +0900 (JST) Original-Received: by uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D73931A2888; Mon, 13 Oct 2014 18:45:09 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <8761foz6pi.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-Mailer: VM undefined under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" acf1c26e3019 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-unknown-linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 130.158.97.161 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:175321 Archived-At: David Kastrup writes: > The alternative would be to create an encoding > utf-8-with-bad-linebreaks and the respective coders/recoders and > have that as the terminal encoding for running TeX. Actually, Emacs *could* design a sane API where the error handler is specified separate from the encoding. This is *much* more important here than it was with the EOL convention. > > Nevertheless, things are much better today than in the days when > > Erik Naggum declared that "Emacs has a fatal disease, and its > > name is 'MULE'". >=20 > Erik was the highest profile programmer/user abandoning Emacs for > XEmacs in order to avoid the consequences of multibyte encodings. If he did, I never heard about it. ISTR he hated XEmacs worse than he hated Mule. I know he stopped following the Emacs mainline, but AFAIK he either went to a Common Lisp implementation like Hemlock, or rolled his own based on a pre- Mule version of GNU Emacs, not XEmacs. > MULE (which is now pretty unavoidable in XEmacs as well I=C2=A0_think_) No, XEmacs built fine without Mule as of early summer. XEmacs 21.5 at least has limited ability to deal with Unicode without Mule, but I don't remember exactly how far it goes. It may be that you're stuck with Latin 1 characters as the internal repertoire, or it may be able to deal with Unicode UTFs as long as the stream is limited to a repertoire contained in a single unibyte character set. If the latter, you have to select fonts appropriately since such an XEmacs knows nothing about non-Unicode character sets other than ASCII. Of course if you want to deal sensibly with non-ASCII, you need to build XEmacs with Mule, but there are a lot of American programmers who don't need that even today.