From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: David Kastrup Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Have you all gone crazy? Was: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:35:31 +0100 Message-ID: <87h9wqimf0.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <87388bnzha.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87k31mdbhe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx0qiv45.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87h9wqd3i5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1419075360 28384 80.91.229.3 (20 Dec 2014 11:36:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2014 11:36:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Phillip Lord , "Allen S. Rout" , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 20 12:35:54 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2IK7-0007jd-Sf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:35:52 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34055 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2IK6-0002pf-Ra for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 06:35:50 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:37827) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2IJq-0002pY-36 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 06:35:35 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2IJo-0002Sp-R3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 06:35:33 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::e]:45698) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2IJo-0002Sl-LT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 06:35:32 -0500 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52873 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2IJn-0006jj-Mb; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 06:35:31 -0500 Original-Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 3F13FE056B; Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:35:31 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <87h9wqd3i5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (Stephen J. Turnbull's message of "Sat, 20 Dec 2014 19:22:58 +0900") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.0.50 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180371 Archived-At: "Stephen J. Turnbull" writes: > David Kastrup writes: > > > There is actually another hidden hurdle that has not been > > mentioned: the target format "Info" is not independent from the > > manual's organization of content: content is organized into > > node-sized chunks, with a somewhat hierarchical organization > > intended to make all non-bottom nodes fit on a screen if feasible > > in order to make navigation fast. > > I don't think this is a big problem, though. I don't see any reason > why the organization into "nodes" or "pages" (as in the original > intent of *nix "man page") would change. It's the obvious way (at > least to me) to provide modularity in documentation to correspond to > the modularity of the program. Well, a lot of the complaints of people preferring man pages over info pages significantly concern the organization of the _content_ rather than a problem with the format. The whole Git documentation is still available as Info manuals (thanks to some Makefile targets and Docbook2x), but it is not really _structurally_ Info-like material. Perl documentation is structured into man pages, and this really strains the concept, basically plastering chapters of a single manual across separate man pages. > > However, this kind of "fast" implies that not every following of a > > link requires substantial time fetching and rerendering pages. > > HTML (let alone http and the Internet) is not intended for fast > > flipping back and forth between independent pages, and the HTML > > browsers are not supposed to deal with humongous pages comprising a > > whole manual either. > > Sorry, David, but this is a *plus*, not a *minus*. The Emacs manuals > will continue to be distributed with Emacs. Users with a full Emacs > installed (OK, Debian users won't get them in the default "free" > distribution) will have local access to the manuals. Local access is > plenty fast whether broken up into multiple files or as a single large > file, as applications like S5 prove. For mostly text-centric stuff, maybe. But that's what the HTML fans loudly claim to be uncool. Stuff like is painful to scroll around even locally loaded. > I can't testify to "humongous" files (eg, the Emacs Lisp manual), but > historically those have been divided for Info presentation, too. Once you work on the divided HTML form, finding stuff via plain text search and/or index gets really painful. And jumping around several files refetches and rerenders them all the time. -- David Kastrup