From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: hw Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 22:31:48 +0200 Organization: my virtual residence Message-ID: <87h8iv3he3.fsf@toy.adminart.net> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87bm9d9zs9.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87efe75v02.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87sh2lu471.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87r2i4p2f8.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87h8ix7gy3.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <835zzdpltc.fsf@gnu.org> <87pnxl16dl.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <837ejso6ks.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536707860 17959 195.159.176.226 (11 Sep 2018 23:17:40 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2018 23:17:40 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 12 01:17:35 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fzruY-0004Xk-Kz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 01:17:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59918 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzrwe-00060t-NW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2018 19:19:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46239) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzrvB-0005xg-C4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2018 19:18:14 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzroZ-0006K7-BA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2018 19:11:24 -0400 Original-Received: from mo6-p01-ob.smtp.rzone.de ([2a01:238:20a:202:5301::3]:29426) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fzroZ-0006Jo-4y; Tue, 11 Sep 2018 19:11:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1536707482; s=strato-dkim-0002; d=adminart.net; h=References:Message-ID:Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From: X-RZG-CLASS-ID:X-RZG-AUTH:From:Subject:Sender; bh=c7EFmprq3S6sIi2XljyqhYJOoRp+dA8czM8/mIStjRw=; b=LBNiQafDJ1YT81BEByr/arhBrynjULG6aYM6K5qsH6nk+PeYDp1R8hucEa9SRg42Dy Sz35IMpdfifZQdFMe/OCI+Vc/V1RYglsN3mbrVLAoDsCOg5+uVhm2tERqlvCJ7oM2M7d IvOX4saJtAblONf/wv3Gmt93LQBjznWxsHxpV3IdVYWVIbkEQvH76dhQabfg9FDAKhMN OF+x8d5HpdW7f1F0mMBrEN9nDeFvz2vmv93eH07ILw9OIQKnqsI1aliiMuiy3VUlGry2 3vxJJ41M49OXXvj4gcLDXH1YeG6mz/HLgtIZfwZPWPnwcp1T9PYIvufOLWJ06bLCM8xm tI/w== X-RZG-AUTH: ":O2kGeEG7b/pS1FS4THaxjVF9w0vVgfQ9xGcjwO5WMRo5c+h5ceMqQWZ3yrBp+AVdIIwXjneEe9k=" X-RZG-CLASS-ID: mo00 Original-Received: from himinbjorg.adminart.net by smtp.strato.de (RZmta 44.0 DYNA|AUTH) with ESMTPSA id e03b99u8BNARNv3 (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (curve secp521r1 with 521 ECDH bits, eq. 15360 bits RSA)) (Client did not present a certificate); Wed, 12 Sep 2018 01:10:27 +0200 (CEST) Original-Received: from toy.adminart.net ([192.168.3.55]) by himinbjorg.adminart.net with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fzrne-0001zn-KN; Wed, 12 Sep 2018 01:10:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: <837ejso6ks.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 11 Sep 2018 10:07:31 +0300") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2a01:238:20a:202:5301::3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229683 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: hw >> Cc: spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk >> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2018 21:48:06 +0200 >> >> > The Alt key does work, you probably have your keyboard misconfigured. >> >> I found out less than a week ago that it now finally works. It did not >> work for the first 25 years or so, beginning on an Atari ST. >> >> Technically, it may have started working earlier and I didn't know >> because hadn't tried it for a long time because it hasn't been working >> for decades. > > It worked for me for the last 30 years. It didn't do that for me. > [...] >> > Not Alt itself, some combinations that begin with Alt. Like Alt-TAB, >> > for example. There are very few such combinations, and Emacs avoids >> > binding important functions to them. So I think explaining that in >> > the tutorial would not be TRT, as the issue is quite obscure. >> >> I don't know, isn't that hard to say? If a WM (or something else) were >> to use Alt+v for something, it might not work, or work intermittently, >> in Emacs. > > We don't need to solve hypothetical problems, only those that happen > in practice. In practice, only a small number of ALT combinations are > usurped by window managers, and they tend to be the same combinations > in all WMs, for good practical reasons. We shouldn't expect that set > to grow or to usurp frequently used combinations, because that would > cause user outcry. You have no way of knowing what key combinations a user may have defined with the WM or with other software that uses or provides binding things to keys. You do know that there can be race conditions between Emacs and other software in the usage of key bindings. What is the advantage of waiting until a user has problem, like the Alt key not working in Emacs, and reports it --- or assumes that's just the way it is and that the ESC key should be used instead --- compared to put a small paragraph into the tutorial so users can be aware of possible race conditions right away and may be able to fix them without asking for help? Emacs is exceptional in how much the developers care about what the users say. With other projects, even if there might still be user outcries, nobody cares.