From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 13:37:19 +0800 Message-ID: <87h7xgjasw.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <86blno9yle.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87d0845msg.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="30485"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: Ahmed Khanzada , Stefan Kangas , Joseph Garvin , Richard Stallman , Emacs developers , Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams To: ndame Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 19 07:38:55 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ2fP-0007q8-J7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 07:38:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37590 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ2fN-0004mx-IW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 01:38:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40164) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ2e8-0003kz-WA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 01:37:37 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ2e6-0007AN-Up for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 01:37:36 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic301-30.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.184.199]:37843) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQ2e6-00074H-F8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 01:37:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1587274652; bh=xDXEKRg+31UyIDtJOkL6gr2Mfp0nygs4qLe5yERbwnk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=Uon3mMwFecKyeWuqeNrJ1Hxx+hKWeBI6UL119onRt/dZed3KjS46HXuxg9PfcuNZH+CrMCAVql3dvZ6G+hZnerJg4wgeA12ymnqn54FqBOVYUVPidg1kP3uRzuDrGouH0/CYpxWDvZ38fqYe2UQEwrJd6Myvo9CgZy42Uu56TiFd+CzuHp1U7FQ1LICUfqv5k61ctwkZpyMuS3pvlBr+8DSMV6zOT9cSD9a8LqH/UbHmyW5sLoW7dytEykExV7FXgQIq+N46GkBPGQI+8FLud/vTZA54rA/Rhc7yslNsftNzkX/QX7joC+tqqlkMStkKBi+hmICjqln8cX03/NWMew== X-YMail-OSG: 1yzu8qsVM1nHiVNfuKUjNEaaUOAUDfKgQ05cZpQ5ApnN29KoNhPXgre7shsaRh6 gTS9QdVH441JnL5pnCRC.9RM.U8PkeWR7IbxK2qXsmBRJk.fh2Y7ANx_DbVnyA0VGdBwOBt.lXV8 COKKlqNCoozyF4kaqHMv1ho1xAIyl99l4mUTaCu6aEH5ov0iqICo7XvrMnKiym8zxky9eC87qM2h 6Fxi.YmMPvJdFOXuw_4lPUY1bO46e112g5iO9f0GV6Ykjl03cXrWNA_.LXXm9ovJz1EAanBxGhGW B4Dy4qjXjoFk8KGJdJIEMsK6XI3JOYMC4rLOWlISFrBJufsuWKa1ZfQqLYXr7vdn5PceoSzumIoi StG3rdEIFC_FrAhBiN.sbmncEV6UeYCY7RRlbukMiAeH9326MQdZ8xTBTTF9QmpvA6vcmsqRqe8F T7Fj4WvKkz2bCWsGhK.P5uJIEha_spIP0KjovO21WtoPuq6w3XqXs7TFGUrwvNr13Zt.VW0U8reG vyS5o5vhE1hToRNHb_g4dtkSKwWKBzpk1ri7bxqxVKuJIejsOekB0hbG3siNPLe1GJL0XiNbM2ty KvUPRgNtxfDnSON2V9vZcOnqQap8O1SUDZv_vMfVR2DdvowoVHoYQdtgphRJLzI.9HrZJC6A8Qa6 g5z7O6gjbQhbDACNI94GF.2C6X5HZlN7MfPAO3ePW1975BgkFqHVwgVH1byusHhhySNoS0dcJR1k gMWYkasylp4UZISG_Zph9LydGSHRCwGLer_y_RAZl769lF14reMYrYEfYSgpchFQuy.rB3b6ipjr qVMs.z86s7ISi1.fsZTQtRQcaDK4.76VfXHu6XQbVN Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 05:37:32 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp416.mail.sg3.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f79a44d6b391241d138c52fb6db15ab6; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 05:37:28 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: (ndame@protonmail.com's message of "Sun, 19 Apr 2020 04:48:50 +0000") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15651 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.184.199; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic301-30.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Linux 3.1-3.10 X-Received-From: 66.163.184.199 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247271 Archived-At: ndame writes: > I agree that Emacs is easier to program once you learned it, but > other editors, like VSCode, has the advantage that you don't have to > learn a quirky and unfamiliar language first. > Many developers know Javascript and even if one doesn't it's more similar > to mainstream languages than lisp, so extension writers mostly has to > learn the VSCode API only. Here's the problem: You have to learn the VS Code API. I'd say learning that, and becoming reasonably proficient at it takes longer than skimming through the Emacs Lisp intro. > VScode has a very nice out of the box experience. If you want support > for a language then it's one click to install it and it installs the > necessary scaffolding too, like a language server for the language. We have several starter packs, with similarly nice OOTB experiences. > And it has Electron for display support which has a mature browser > engine behind it, so it can support advanced graphics features out > of the box on all the supported platforms. Electron is not free software (https://labs.parabola.nu/issues/1167), and is definitely not as well suited to providing an integrated experience like Emacs. For instance, even if you render raw HTML inside VS Code, you would not be able to grab the region using VSC APIs. I'm not sure if the VSC API allows interacting with the DOM, but from what I can tell, it can't. There are also various other issues, with relying on a lower-level abstraction for "nice graphics features" (the DOM) that is outside the editors control. > Out of the box experience matters. Familiarity matters (e.g supporting > standard keys on the platfrom for cut and paste). Nice appearance matters. We have Cua mode. No, you don't need to have it enabled by default, since it would result in unnecessary breakage for old users. It would be nice if the startup screen informed users of features such as the (hypothetical) GTK theme previously mentioned, and Cua. I personally think that the Emacs bindings are better, and in the end work better with Emacs itself, but I do agree that newcomers should be allowed to familiarize themselves with Emacs before moving their workflow (and habits) to it entirely. > No wonder lot of developers choose VScode: > https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?geo=US&q=emacs%20editor,visual%20studio%20code We're here to change that :)