Move newsticker to elpa?

Move newsticker to elpa?

[Ulf Jasper]

Hi all,

triggered by bug#41376 I am planning to resume work on newsticker.  Now
I am wondering if it were a good idea to start by moving newsticker to
elpa.  What is the common opinion or policy regarding moving packages to
elpa?

ulf

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 19.05.2020 20:30, Ulf Jasper wrote:
> triggered by bug#41376 I am planning to resume work on newsticker.  Now
> I am wondering if it were a good idea to start by moving newsticker to
> elpa.  What is the common opinion or policy regarding moving packages to
> elpa?

The opinions are split, but I don't see any downsides for Newsticker, in 
particular.

You could also make it a :core package, of course.

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[T.V Raman]

The advantage with newsticker going to elpa, especially if you are
actively working on it is that users dont have to update all of Emacs to
get newer improvements in newsticker.
-- 

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Ulf Jasper]

Thanks for the answers.  I think I will move newsticker to GNU ELPA.

Stefan suggested to talk to you, Eli, about the transition process.  Are
there things that need special attention?

ulf

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ulf Jasper <ulf.jasper@web.de>
> Cc: "T.V Raman" <raman@google.com>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>,
>   emacs-devel@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 17:58:41 +0200
> 
> Stefan suggested to talk to you, Eli, about the transition process.

He did?  Where?  And why?

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Ulf Jasper]

Am 20.05.2020 um 19:18 (+0300) schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
>> From: Ulf Jasper <ulf.jasper@web.de>
>> Cc: "T.V Raman" <raman@google.com>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>,
>>   emacs-devel@gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
>> Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 17:58:41 +0200
>>
>> Stefan suggested to talk to you, Eli, about the transition process.
>
> He did?  Where?  And why?

Yes, he did.  He sent a reply to this thread.  Without cc-ing the list
though, but it still counts, I'd say.  Regarding his motives I'd prefer
not to make a statement.  ;)

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ulf Jasper <ulf.jasper@web.de>
> Cc: raman@google.com,  dgutov@yandex.ru,  emacs-devel@gnu.org,
>   monnier@iro.umontreal.ca
> Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 19:23:44 +0200
> 
> >> Stefan suggested to talk to you, Eli, about the transition process.
> >
> > He did?  Where?  And why?
> 
> Yes, he did.  He sent a reply to this thread.  Without cc-ing the list
> though

I'm quite sure I wasn't CC'ed either.
Hopefully, Stefan will re-send with the right CC this time.

More to the point, I don't think I've ever seen a package being moved
from core to ELPA, and if I'm right, it means we have no procedure for
that.  We'll have to make one as we go.  Which is why it is important
to talk about that (hint, hint).

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Clément Pit-Claudel]

On 20/05/2020 13.31, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: Ulf Jasper <ulf.jasper@web.de>
>> Cc: raman@google.com,  dgutov@yandex.ru,  emacs-devel@gnu.org,
>>   monnier@iro.umontreal.ca
>> Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 19:23:44 +0200
>>
>>>> Stefan suggested to talk to you, Eli, about the transition process.
>>>
>>> He did?  Where?  And why?
>>
>> Yes, he did.  He sent a reply to this thread.  Without cc-ing the list
>> though
> 
> I'm quite sure I wasn't CC'ed either.
> Hopefully, Stefan will re-send with the right CC this time.
> 
> More to the point, I don't think I've ever seen a package being moved
> from core to ELPA, and if I'm right, it means we have no procedure for
> that.  We'll have to make one as we go.  Which is why it is important
> to talk about that (hint, hint).

Didn't João do that a few days ago with xref and project, and before that with flymake?

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Clément Pit-Claudel <cpitclaudel@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 13:41:05 -0400
> 
> > More to the point, I don't think I've ever seen a package being moved
> > from core to ELPA, and if I'm right, it means we have no procedure for
> > that.  We'll have to make one as we go.  Which is why it is important
> > to talk about that (hint, hint).
> 
> Didn't João do that a few days ago with xref and project, and before that with flymake?

I don't know.

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Stephen Berman]

On Wed, 20 May 2020 20:31:54 +0300 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

>> From: Ulf Jasper <ulf.jasper@web.de>
>> Cc: raman@google.com,  dgutov@yandex.ru,  emacs-devel@gnu.org,
>>   monnier@iro.umontreal.ca
>> Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 19:23:44 +0200
>>
>> >> Stefan suggested to talk to you, Eli, about the transition process.
>> >
>> > He did?  Where?  And why?
>>
>> Yes, he did.  He sent a reply to this thread.  Without cc-ing the list
>> though
>
> I'm quite sure I wasn't CC'ed either.
> Hopefully, Stefan will re-send with the right CC this time.
>
> More to the point, I don't think I've ever seen a package being moved
> from core to ELPA, and if I'm right, it means we have no procedure for
> that.  We'll have to make one as we go.  Which is why it is important
> to talk about that (hint, hint).

See NEWS.27:

** ada-mode

---
*** The built-in ada-mode is now deleted.  The GNU ELPA package is a
good replacement, even in very large source files.

But apropos, also see bug#39553.

Steve Berman

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Michael Albinus]

Clément Pit-Claudel <cpitclaudel@gmail.com> writes:

>> More to the point, I don't think I've ever seen a package being moved
>> from core to ELPA, and if I'm right, it means we have no procedure for
>> that.  We'll have to make one as we go.  Which is why it is important
>> to talk about that (hint, hint).
>
> Didn't João do that a few days ago with xref and project, and before that with flymake?

No, he made these packages available via GNU ELPA. But they are still
part of vanilla Emacs.

Best regards, Michael.

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Ulf Jasper]

Sorry for the long delay.

I could now start to move newsticker to ELPA.  The first step would be
to

a) remove newsticker's el and texi files from the Emacs repository (in
   master branch),
b) put them into the ELPA repository (in master branch),
c) make additions and changes to make the new package work, and
d) publish the new package.

All steps (at least a-c) would be pushed "simultaneously" in order to
avoid the temporary disappearance of newsticker.

I am not sure what to do with newsticker mentions in etc/AUTHORS.

The next steps would then be to work on newsticker in the ELPA repo and
leave the Emacs repo alone.

Except from the AUTHORS question things look pretty straightforward -- I
am sure I missed something.  Please tell me what it is.

ulf

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ulf Jasper <ulf.jasper@web.de>
> Cc: dgutov@yandex.ru,  emacs-devel@gnu.org,  monnier@iro.umontreal.ca,
>   raman@google.com
> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 19:40:49 +0200
> 
> Sorry for the long delay.
> 
> I could now start to move newsticker to ELPA.  The first step would be
> to
> 
> a) remove newsticker's el and texi files from the Emacs repository (in
>    master branch),
> b) put them into the ELPA repository (in master branch),
> c) make additions and changes to make the new package work, and
> d) publish the new package.
> 
> All steps (at least a-c) would be pushed "simultaneously" in order to
> avoid the temporary disappearance of newsticker.

I don't remember: did we agree on removing newsticker from the Emacs
distribution?

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> Ulf Jasper <ulf.jasper@web.de> writes:

    > Sorry for the long delay.  I could now start to move newsticker to
    > ELPA.  The first step would be to

    > a) remove newsticker's el and texi files from the Emacs repository
    > (in master branch), b) put them into the ELPA repository (in
    > master branch), c) make additions and changes to make the new
    > package work, and d) publish the new package.

Sorry, but does that mean that only ELPA will the source of newsticker?
What about those users who do not use packages?

Best wishes,

Colin Baxter.


Colin Baxter
URL: http://www.Colin-Baxter.com
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Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Ulf Jasper]

Am 04.08.2020 um 21:35 (+0300) schrieb Eli Zaretskii:

> I don't remember: did we agree on removing newsticker from the Emacs
> distribution?

When I asked whether it were a good idea to move newsticker to elpa that
started a short discussion.  A decision, however, has not been made.
We could try to do that now.

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Ulf Jasper <ulf.jasper@web.de> writes:

> When I asked whether it were a good idea to move newsticker to elpa that
> started a short discussion.  A decision, however, has not been made.
> We could try to do that now.

Have we ever moved something to ELPA before?

I mean, for other things we remove/rename in Emacs, we have a many-years
obsoletion policy (sometimes decades)...  Moving stuff from stock Emacs
will break people's setups, and while they can get it back "just" by
installing the package, that's still pretty annoying.

I don't know.  Do we have a policy on this?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

    > Ulf Jasper <ulf.jasper@web.de> writes:
    >> When I asked whether it were a good idea to move newsticker to
    >> elpa that started a short discussion.  A decision, however, has
    >> not been made.  We could try to do that now.

    > Have we ever moved something to ELPA before?

    > I mean, for other things we remove/rename in Emacs, we have a
    > many-years obsoletion policy (sometimes decades)...  Moving stuff
    > from stock Emacs will break people's setups, and while they can

It will break mine.

    > get it back "just" by installing the package, that's still pretty
    > annoying.

For me, 'packages' have brought problems. Life is too short for that and
I refuse to use them.

Please give users an alternative - an 'installation from source' even.

Best wishes,


Colin Baxter
URL: http://www.Colin-Baxter.com
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GnuPG fingerprint: 68A8 799C 0230 16E7 BF68  2A27 BBFA 2492 91F5 41C8
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Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Stefan Monnier]

> Have we ever moved something to ELPA before?

Yes.  `ada-mode` is a large example, and `crisp.el` is a small example.
Not sure if there were others.


        Stefan

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Cc: Ulf Jasper <ulf.jasper@web.de>,  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
>   raman@google.com,  dgutov@yandex.ru,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 15:40:12 -0400
> 
> > Have we ever moved something to ELPA before?
> 
> Yes.  `ada-mode` is a large example, and `crisp.el` is a small example.

AFAIR, crisp.el was moved instead of being obsoleted.  So ada-mode is
probably the only example.

We could have newsticker both in Emacs and in ELPA for a time, until
we figure out how to have ELPA packages in an Emacs released tarball.

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Ulf Jasper]

Am 05.08.2020 um 05:30 (+0300) schrieb Eli Zaretskii:
>> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
>> Cc: Ulf Jasper <ulf.jasper@web.de>,  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
>>   raman@google.com,  dgutov@yandex.ru,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 2020 15:40:12 -0400
>>
>> > Have we ever moved something to ELPA before?
>>
>> Yes.  `ada-mode` is a large example, and `crisp.el` is a small example.
>
> AFAIR, crisp.el was moved instead of being obsoleted.  So ada-mode is
> probably the only example.

IIUC both, crisp and ada-mode, have been moved -- what's the difference?

> We could have newsticker both in Emacs and in ELPA for a time, until

If we had two newstickers, one in each repo, would we synchronise them?
Or would we freeze one and work on the other?

> we figure out how to have ELPA packages in an Emacs released tarball.

Has it been decided already to deliver ELPA packages as part of an Emacs
release?

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ulf Jasper <ulf.jasper@web.de>
> Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,  larsi@gnus.org,
>   dgutov@yandex.ru,  emacs-devel@gnu.org,  raman@google.com
> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 2020 15:27:01 +0200
> 
> > AFAIR, crisp.el was moved instead of being obsoleted.  So ada-mode is
> > probably the only example.
> 
> IIUC both, crisp and ada-mode, have been moved -- what's the difference?

The difference is that we can expect no one to be hurt by moving an
obsolete package (which otherwise would have been moved to the
lisp/obsolete directory, where it must be loaded by hand).

> > We could have newsticker both in Emacs and in ELPA for a time, until
> 
> If we had two newstickers, one in each repo, would we synchronise them?
> Or would we freeze one and work on the other?

You can ask the developers of a few packages that are developed
separately, like Org and MH-E.

> > we figure out how to have ELPA packages in an Emacs released tarball.
> 
> Has it been decided already to deliver ELPA packages as part of an Emacs
> release?

We want to be able to do that eventually, but we didn't figure out the
details yet.

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Stefan Monnier]

> If we had two newstickers, one in each repo, would we synchronise them?

I think ideally we'd freeze the one in Emacs with the intent to phase it
out, which we could do by moving it to `lisp/obsolete`.


        Stefan

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Ulf Jasper]

So, having newsticker both in Emacs and GNU ELPA (for the time being)
sounds good to me.

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Tom Tromey]

Stefan> Yes.  `ada-mode` is a large example, and `crisp.el` is a small example.
Stefan> Not sure if there were others.

ada-mode was unfortunate.  It meant that when I built Emacs, suddenly
something I relied on stopped working.  I filed a bug about this.
(What is worse in this case is that auto-mode-alist wasn't updated, so
now I get an error when opening Ada source.)

Tom

Re: Move newsticker to elpa?

[Ulf Jasper]

Am 06.08.2020 um 10:41 (-0400) schrieb Stefan Monnier:
>> If we had two newstickers, one in each repo, would we synchronise them?
>
> I think ideally we'd freeze the one in Emacs with the intent to phase it
> out, which we could do by moving it to `lisp/obsolete`.

Sounds good to me.

Do we agree that this is the way we will go?