From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Nick Savage Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 22:01:54 -0400 Message-ID: <87h7s71ze5.fsf@nicksavage.ca> References: <875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22677"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 09 04:02:31 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFpRN-0005lR-Sz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 04:02:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53034 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFpRM-0003zz-Vn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 22:02:29 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53710) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFpQs-0003P4-2L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 22:01:58 -0400 Original-Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.27]:59113) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFpQq-0005bh-8M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 22:01:57 -0400 Original-Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CBA5C0090 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 22:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 08 Sep 2020 22:01:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; bh=lKgeKwRPjrw023/fCiWDhfDgONVwP3SJSzM9D/RPI qE=; b=CkQtKw3V2U2TfZkcCrO8WL9JgvxQScbyzI7mN6G5fMNLtkIt5jYdLwK/5 TLys3v5yQFn9zueOU8yYUYpB4bCO9OL8YwobvvCE+c3kr98W9/TvxGU5yNzvDBfr 2vVrudf8E83zm+erqEAEJU8jgP/vJ30tw+e31hmnVnMmp+e4OyLIGzE43VJf8IpW FjtMmEN/971KiGupr8ccVv79h5x/W+9XIIf7ppK1M9EjU5SqtN5O9jEAhCUPAglm aihff4ADF76JwDMGVELMvsyR4qhBjvvhWTBo4xcGPVOwe3XnYKblJ4J4Ahp+HK77 6+nqu11xOOBMfh3GEawb3FDhmMv4Q== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduiedrudehgedgheehucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefhvffufhffjgfkfgggtgfgsehtqh ertddtreejnecuhfhrohhmpefpihgtkhcuufgrvhgrghgvuceonhhitghksehnihgtkhhs rghvrghgvgdrtggrqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedufffggffhfeegffduffekhfehvd eliedugeelfedugfekudetueejveevtefgieenucfkphepjedtrddvledrvddujedrvddt feenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehnih gtkhesnhhitghkshgrvhgrghgvrdgtrg X-ME-Proxy: Original-Received: from localhost (bras-base-aylmpq0104w-grc-08-70-29-217-203.dsl.bell.ca [70.29.217.203]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 48EDD328005E for ; Tue, 8 Sep 2020 22:01:55 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com> (=?utf-8?B?IkfDtmt0dcSf?= Kayaalp"'s message of "Tue, 08 Sep 2020 21:48:18 +0300") Received-SPF: none client-ip=66.111.4.27; envelope-from=nick@nicksavage.ca; helo=out3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/08 22:01:55 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254830 Archived-At: G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp writes: >> I think everybody would agree on attracting more people to use >> Emacs=E2=80=94that means more blogs and help, more contributor, etc. And >> people agree that Emacs isn=E2=80=99t as beginner-friendly as it could b= e. The >> problem is what to improve, and how. > > Not necessarily. Personally, I don=E2=80=99t see much benefit in trying = to > appeal users that have no background in coding whatsoever, and users who > wouldn=E2=80=99t really benefit from what Emacs has to offer. > As someone who comes to the community with minimal background to coding, I'd like to add a little bit of my experience and what attracted me to Emacs in the first place: I've probably been using Emacs for around ten years, but not very seriously until very recently. I originally dabbled in coding a tiny bit in high school and experimented with Emacs because it seemed cool. I studied in the humanities in university, and I made more use of it as an ed= itor and for LaTeX. LaTeX is not an uncommon thing for people in academia to be using - I actually met someone in accounting who said he uses it! I'll admit I'm atypical and I wouldn't expect the average humanities student or professor to be using Emacs, no matter what, but I think Emacs has a lot of value for people outside programming, especially with or= g-mode. The big hurdle I think for a lot of users is that Emacs is basically a black box. I had no idea until very recently that CUA mode exist, which could add value to users. I actually really like the idea of a configuration wizard, as others have suggested, with some common options li= ke that. It's probably the least destructive in terms of environment since it doesn't actually change any defaults and can provide new users with a "modern" experience out of the box. > The major problem is that someone who fiddled with Emacs now and > couldn=E2=80=99t make use of it may think differently when a couple years= later > they have some knowledge of programming (not necessarily professionally) > and some experience with other tools. > > Anecdotally, I=E2=80=99ve picked up and quit Emacs multiple times before I > decided to stay with it. And it=E2=80=99s been more than 6 years now tha= t I=E2=80=99m > using it for the good part of my computing. What was puzzling and weird > to me back then is useful and essential to me now. > This is probably a good point though too, on the other hand. Locking in CUA mode early with a configuration might lead users to stick with it long-term instead of maybe seeing the value the rest of the program has, for better or for worse.