From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Emanuel Berg via "Emacs development discussions." Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Implicit assumptions in the latest discussions Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2020 09:45:45 +0200 Message-ID: <87h7rvle8m.fsf@ebih.ebihd> References: <1bc3251a-7b36-f151-7fc6-9ecf2639bb9f@grinta.net> Reply-To: Emanuel Berg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18473"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Cancel-Lock: sha1:XHyBFOL+4p5Jlgu0JnS3RbzrO6U= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 18 09:47:15 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kJB6x-0004i4-Cn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 09:47:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47410 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kJB6w-0008HF-FJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 03:47:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47602) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kJB5k-0007fO-Uq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 03:46:00 -0400 Original-Received: from static.214.254.202.116.clients.your-server.de ([116.202.254.214]:42292 helo=ciao.gmane.io) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kJB5f-0007uj-EP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 03:45:56 -0400 Original-Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kJB5b-0003Be-1c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2020 09:45:51 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Mail-Copies-To: never Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/18 03:33:26 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.248, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256055 Archived-At: Daniele Nicolodi wrote: > 2. Users are not drawn to try Emacs because what > Emacs is and for his reputation, but because > they expect Emacs to be like other editors. > > I think that who chooses Emacs, does so because of > what Emacs is and what it has been in its long > history, not because they expect something > different. [...] People really "expect" the way you describe? I can only tell my experience. I opened Emacs. The font lock, or syntax highlighting as I'd call it at that point, looked cool. I wanted to change a bunch of stuff, like I always do. But unlike other software, with a rudimentary config file - which is already awesome, at that point - see my mpv stuff [1] - not that I used mpv back then, if it was even around - ANYWAY - I realized that Emacs didn't provide me with just an .rc file where I could set a bunch of options that it would parse, no, I was actually _programming_, and in Lisp, which I considered cool (and still do). The step from `setq's to `defun's, I don't know when that happened, probably right away. I realized this whole thing was an awesome window for my own creativity. I didn't expect anything but realized it instantly. I've always been obsessed by tools: text editor or revolving hole punch, it doesn't matter, I modify them and spend time with them like other people do their CD collections or whatever. (People don't collect CDs anymore.) I don't know what features or what is different with modern editors or where they have the huge advantage. What I saw before Emacs were idle, nano, notepad++, Eclipse, Visual Studio, and a couple of others; either they were super-simple (much, much too simple) or they had the GUI/menu based style which I pretty much came to programming because I _didn't_ like. So if I expected anything, which I doubt, I absolutely did not expect Emacs to be anything like that. In fact, the more it _wasn't_ like that, the more I'd like it... Maybe today there are fundamentally different editors, different compared to nano (simple), Emacs (Emacs), and Eclipse (GUI/menu), and every other editor I know. Yes, it would be interesting to have a look at them... But, instead of making Emacs more like them in general, let's hear it, make a list of their three killer features that they have, and we don't. We take it from there :) [1] https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/mpv/mpv.conf https://dataswamp.org/~incal/conf/mpv/input.conf BTW mpv is perhaps a poor example here because it is also extendible, with Lua. -- underground experts united http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 https://dataswamp.org/~incal