From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Phillip Lord Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [feature/dll-only-windows] A new windows build, comments wanted Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2021 21:31:45 +0000 Message-ID: <87h7nppzjy.fsf@russet.org.uk> References: <87pn2dq3xv.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83ft39hnk1.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15845"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 09 22:33:37 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kyLrc-000411-PV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 09 Jan 2021 22:33:36 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59918 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kyLrb-0000c9-Q9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 09 Jan 2021 16:33:35 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50132) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kyLq2-0007kq-Fu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 09 Jan 2021 16:31:59 -0500 Original-Received: from cloud103.planethippo.com ([78.129.138.110]:51032) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kyLq0-0002v0-9J; Sat, 09 Jan 2021 16:31:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=russet.org.uk; s=default; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID :Date:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=C3P7+UQRwDD6B5OHN67PCGE2/gh+EXyog8ZLopjwxxg=; b=1y69XtSMYCLAsc7BGK5KoHq2h FoyaD82humo3mXMOcVRMzW/hA7WoMA+Ss7wfj+aNEbg3pYWHvCwpB8lS2Tjj2JzccwZl2bqNl+B98 H+XdjihDjuw/HOx6ZsuM16cZf+FGKAT7/4YBhZAtz+Ay4/rVypUdodnMS1zsAQHG0F3HkSUwtjosx oeK3VzQ4m376OkzrZuYPWcw/yo74/81Aj8C3OZUt9553GXvfj1iwP/ZPjA4AD97+DCneE/sxF5ZU3 mLxBnnJyYuZ1CLW9anfd41MyVuKwil3mfto4b9VXCM2QCsEigT1JMrnTXZ6jF7EkzFHk6KD23BDzo LWmFq2Low==; Original-Received: from cpc142648-benw12-2-0-cust627.16-2.cable.virginm.net ([82.10.74.116]:51302 helo=russet.org.uk) by cloud103.planethippo.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (Exim 4.93) (envelope-from ) id 1kyLpx-0000gX-C8; Sat, 09 Jan 2021 21:31:53 +0000 In-Reply-To: <83ft39hnk1.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 09 Jan 2021 22:18:06 +0200") X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - cloud103.planethippo.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - gnu.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - russet.org.uk X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: cloud103.planethippo.com: authenticated_id: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk X-Authenticated-Sender: cloud103.planethippo.com: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk Received-SPF: none client-ip=78.129.138.110; envelope-from=phillip.lord@russet.org.uk; helo=cloud103.planethippo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:262819 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> From: Phillip Lord >> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 2021 19:57:00 +0000 >> >> So I have tried a new technique which is now on >> feature/dll-only-windows. Essentially, I just name all of the DLLs that >> Emacs uses directly and then figure out any dependencies of these using >> `ntldd`. I've tried `ntldd` directly on emacs.exe which does not >> work. > > Of course, it won't: we load all the DLLs dynamically at run time, we > don't link against their import libraries. The only exceptions I know > of are (1) GMP, and (2) libgccjit (in the native-comp build). Indeed. >> The practical upshot of this is that the dependencies file is just >> a pile of DLLs. > > Did you verify that the DLLs include all of _their_ dependencies? If > yes, how did you do that? It's totally dependent on ntldd being correct, of course. It comes with a --recursive option which I used rather than reimplementing it myself. As ever, the only tests I run on the windows package for Emacs are to unpack, start and then run "w32-feature.el" from etc. These all pass. >> 2) harfbuzz is currently not working on i686. > > Is that a bug in the MinGW64 HarfBuzz port, or is that a bug in Emacs? > I'm using a 32-bit Emacs build with HarfBuzz all the time, but it's > HarfBuzz I built myself (it's available from the ezwinports site). I don't know, I haven't debugged it yet:-) >> Before I fix this, I think it is worth asking whether I still need >> to produce a i686 binary. > > I cannot tell you what to do, but it would be nice to have binaries > that can be run on older Windows versions. So if the build supports > XP and older Windows, keeping the 32-bit build would be an advantage. I know that you use a very old windows, but I doubt you use my packages! I have no other data of how many people this would impact, but my guess would be not many, so I am asking for opinions. One solution could be to stop making the 32-bit build and see if anyone complains. It could be restored, either before or after the Emacs-28 release. >> 3) Currently the "no-deps" version actually includes libXpm. Emacs >> starts without it, but looks ugly. I would like to no longer special >> case libXpm and just make the "no-deps" download really include no >> deps. I think this is reasonable, because this download is now, really >> special purpose and "with-deps" is the default. > > If we believe no one will want the no-deps download, why have it at > all? If we think someone will want it, I don't think they should be > punished by having BW icons on the tool bar. Indeed. My guess is that currently if people use -no-deps they do so because they want the smaller download. This change, of course, we reduce the difference and regardless the installer version is smaller still (by a half). Given all that, the only real audience for the -no-deps version would be those who have a mingw64 installation already. They won't get BW icons (assuming that libXpm is installed). Of course, that audience is likely to be technically skilled and they could just delete the DLLs in the "with-deps" download. On balance, therefore, I would say we don't need the -no-deps version and it would clean up the download site and reduce confusion. >> 4) Currently, native-comp is an "--with-nativecomp" option even on the >> native-comp branch. It is likely to be merged this way to master? > > Yes, I think so. Are you worried about stability or newness? I guess it will become the default at some point. It seems to have few disadvantages, other than hammering the CPU at bit at initial start up. > >> Currently, I build the Windows distribution of Emacs with all the >> default options. > > Which non-default options of practical importance does that leave out? Currently, none. If --with-nativecomp is not default, then, I think it would become the example. >> I can make an alternative release "--with-nativecomp" but needs some >> effort; it also does not address the question of how I should build >> Emacs for Windows when a full release of Emacs-28 happens. If, the >> full release of Emacs-28 will be native-comp, I'd rather start >> building snapshots with it as soon as it is merged. > > I think you should build --with-nativecomp. People can always > uninstall libgccjit or rename it if they don't want to use native > compilation. Okay. I guess "make NATIVE_FULL_AOT=1" would be the thing as well, depending on how long it takes. >> 5) Why is it "--with-nativecomp", shouldn't it be "--with-native-comp". > > Probably, but we didn't yet get to splitting such thin hair in that > branch ;-) Yeah, can't help it. Splitting hairs is my job. Phil