From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: indent-tabs-mode default [was: Representation of the Emacs userbase on emacs-devel] Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2021 12:39:40 +1000 Message-ID: <87h7f1njnv.fsf@gmail.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="22176"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.7.0; emacs 27.2.50 To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 04 04:46:10 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mMLh3-0005X6-Uw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 04 Sep 2021 04:46:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41600 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMLh2-0002oR-CK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 22:46:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33482) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMLgC-00022T-57 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 22:45:16 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x533.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::533]:38431) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMLgA-0007OA-BT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 22:45:15 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x533.google.com with SMTP id w8so841362pgf.5 for ; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 19:45:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=references:user-agent:from:to:subject:date:in-reply-to:message-id :mime-version; bh=nyY6PlQXVQNazIOnmqg1SbbbuZxQP/IpaxCKoqF/beo=; b=pgMf4ulfOc1m0iitrH+msUw/diZnsZEH75/COcd4+JR/e2dwrrZXeALgy5MU6ixtmT 0NZmi0/Dsd+ltCcI6f0SOr1yPU1E6rwj9xujSXEthkpo9aDQsvcYSx4BRhJv6OmUzBQi foNHla4z3BX1n236P0rwn69l1ewKjRy+j7KUqSZk71ek3dtd345QkRvMgmdGew/2JgCy vAS3O79B5MOuZHNj4jVeS0icbnKfzoo4Y69/9MrrusWdh6iVqNQZyvczfs4Qx0YZj2cs ZYraZivY4Bh8DRMC9OhBWMAm8K3P0SzG0wnSaxr527dPbs7V6gyBPS01zTNLDIVUbgrw 708A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version; bh=nyY6PlQXVQNazIOnmqg1SbbbuZxQP/IpaxCKoqF/beo=; b=YeHdyFE6foLH+pK3S118s/djCza/9gE4z0VwFYu1MSl4rudBGDkJ3kFvyTF3F7sJdx CMITzi8Md4b4646dWmw03/XmaWpBVg03uPJaI4ifZzfQeW9vDb44XrubJNdwxXpCyFfo T60+BI6ktXY2nOENnYcG9Et2/JYm3pUCYswt+ZVHxIQtWdeQcGBEWUzwQXq/YXid9mVH g/xWtKXEuieCO6oLhqZt7l5D5cZ5ADFF2Hw7dtquHJ4TPBKHeR4QKhwC/X33iDUtn8yq GV8QWVd68P3+NbVNSyiOqNYOFp5gR8T9MpBfQVHakV9CmzpZsgsJ3obkafPYqN3lu6qW krDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5330rXeS1Rc2s9WU3QWgM+L2m5dXtQQt3jHMmXwyvVUTgDuCJmFF 41Q0VX6YSXweRoED/QZS6xikwqgNthk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyaGF2IzSfdRVmwwZu7XdZQWE8YinYEaA29XvOMTvQCemG7xMsisXa25N6QSkiOz1WWo0yayQ== X-Received: by 2002:a62:5c7:0:b029:3e0:dd9c:8fd2 with SMTP id 190-20020a6205c70000b02903e0dd9c8fd2mr6055925pff.28.1630723511991; Fri, 03 Sep 2021 19:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from tim-desktop (106-69-68-95.dyn.iinet.net.au. [106.69.68.95]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b10sm596754pfi.122.2021.09.03.19.45.10 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 03 Sep 2021 19:45:11 -0700 (PDT) In-reply-to: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::533; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x533.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:273830 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: > I'll just mention this reason that `indent-tabs-mode' > should be OFF by default "nowadays". It's a reason > that wasn't so strong in past years, I think. > > With it OFF, code copied from Emacs (vanilla, 3rd-party, > or just code someone tossed off in *scratch*) and pasted > into online forums (StackExchange, Reddit,... whatever), > or emails (not necessarily plain-text), or applications > won't have its apparent indentation changed. That's a > good thing. > > I see this gotcha a lot on emacs.StackExchange, for > instance. A user copies and pastes some code, and the > indentation is broken (but maybe not super noticeably), > because TAB chars are used here & there for indentation. > > That means the user (or someone else) needs to then > notice that apparent change (gotcha), and then edit the > code to give it reasonable indentation. > > Even a user (such as myself) who's aware of the gotcha > needs to, e.g., use `M-x untabify' before copying, when > using `emacs -Q'. Some users don't know `untabify', > and they end up doing the TAB-at-a-time editing outside > Emacs, in the paste destination. That's a shame. > > This is a small reason, perhaps. But it is one more. > It's an unnecessary bother, IMO. > > It's easy enough for some local use (e.g. following the > standards of some organization) to customize the option > to ON. But that should no longer be the default, IMO. Yes, I would agree. I also find it a much less common setting these days. The only time I come across the need to use tabs instead of spaces tends to be with older projects and as you point out, it is simple to set the default to tabs for those on a per project basis.