From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ihor Radchenko Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Org mode and Emacs Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 23:08:36 +0800 Message-ID: <87h74vqjkb.fsf@localhost> References: <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> <87zginqohs.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="25371"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Alan Mackenzie , Tim Cross , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 08 17:11:24 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nyxLA-0006MA-43 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 17:11:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57340 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyxL8-0001zR-Kb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 11:11:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38956) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyxHu-0008GI-Fm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 11:08:03 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]:42807) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nyxHr-0008Rf-2r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 11:08:00 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id d22so17862769plr.9 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 08:07:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rE2SbAzH8SG6bdZHc2fcIQRpoBsER3Ddu8rwuxdPZ74=; b=c5T8t3/PsR3TMVenbZ3a4YPRvnt2KMcHzuFpkVU/xaekMhAWhO+znFQc1+cyzxOVjA 3mAq0kYCzkYwySQZorvvSbhTjJ6+iK5Baovz+6+s5qqOYKd01wgbhSDcm6wS899BzaL7 BDGoptY/h3ec5v3Y5gw4itvD2NU55+K+LV4kSgauNZxE9+ZFXy2Oy+clnA2AACQwEZoH Z7xe++MiqtwA1s2+2ArN1Jt0eObIIw2osCdnZmvIr9v2vdC59l485ZhGw4n3e4H2tYPk 4QiHpw+tabisWYyPgecihfLEYcYukQjyTfLf7BPZqHPKbYiyW3T1TCNYci32qdsv3OLL HcbA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=rE2SbAzH8SG6bdZHc2fcIQRpoBsER3Ddu8rwuxdPZ74=; b=ngEt82NYFTyPvHnGHoYggXH68BkDcgfiEGhWpMT1nykbrgGjDT8SN/VqW+DvTh3yTZ YLAbHkffHZrItca+2tn7l1Sf4+9eYHA7Hb1i0wxWDmyXnMlFfWle3qMFG4x4ZF7kiBPg aNXKyPMu9p6ROKXN7KFAtt9/VUmFwM2ziOLP+KVX9PZau6YVCW949ByQPF8tqL2oWUdO KMoZvsd6F790aJlwubKUqCQUaWW/UPyXr4WkvNzmaZPscfsr2xbrTBhzY+feFf4iraun 23fi6KRO50TTS9xK0omYar4Pghl0zL4GXezzNECRYY6+UUHXvlsOns4hqjOfMf59XSPB UkyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53138VB2l9BtyQlODAZtxf8U7MoD70YYs70zljSwjF47Um8JFuJv CgUXgW+K77DBMvK9VHlltq0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwu1wOzTLJSR4QsbT7jKtqp1aFJ+QzjV1oOZ1KjuS+FbzUl9YOHhBXIdp57mRmhXDGJTO3+zw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:86c8:b0:1e3:52ee:953d with SMTP id y8-20020a17090a86c800b001e352ee953dmr44315862pjv.171.1654700877701; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 08:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost ([64.32.23.62]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d13-20020a170902654d00b001663185e654sm14054851pln.280.2022.06.08.08.07.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 08 Jun 2022 08:07:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f; envelope-from=yantar92@gmail.com; helo=mail-pl1-x62f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:290941 Archived-At: Stefan Monnier writes: >> If you have some specific cases when Org mode alters Emacs defaults in a >> way that bites the user, please give concrete examples. Otherwise, your >> criticism is not very constructive. > > [ Alan gave one or two concrete examples of things that bit him. ] Alan gave two concrete examples: >>> I put org.org into a buffer. I saw lots of lines ending in ..., which = is >>> fair enough. I try C-c C-s to show a subtree, and instead get a calend= ar >>> in a new window. Brilliant! Did I mention I hate context dependent >>> commands? So I have to type M-x outline-show-subtree, which works. I >>> read the screenful of text, then type C-S- to scroll it up. >>> Instead of my standard scrolling command, I get an error message about >>> "Not at a clock log". Org mode has stolen the key sequences >>> C-S-/, amongst many others. So how am I meant to scroll text? where he 1. Complains about major mode shadowing key binding reserved for major modes, according to D.2 Key Binding Conventions section of the Elisp manual: > =E2=80=A2 Sequences consisting of =E2=80=98C-c=E2=80=99 followed by = a control character or a > digit are reserved for major modes. 2. C-S-, which is a valid point. However, arrow commands is one of the few core concepts used in Org major mode. I am not sure if re-binding C-S- is so much of a sin on Org mode side. Emacs manual 49.3 Customizing Key Bindings says: > Since most modes define their own key bindings, activating a mode > might override your custom key bindings. A small number of keys are > reserved for user-defined bindings, and should not be used by modes,= so > key bindings using those keys are safer in this regard. The reserved > key sequences are those consisting of =E2=80=98C-c=E2=80=99 followed= by a letter (either > upper or lower case), and function keys through without > modifiers (*note Modifier Keys::). As a compromise, Org may provide some kind of read-only mode just to navigate the document. The arrow bindings can be disabled then. They are for editing. >>> I see many of these bindings as context dependent, with the name of the >>> function named after the key sequence, not the functionality - e.g. >>> org-shiftcontroldown. That is not the way the rest of Emacs is >>> constructed. I hate context dependence (except when it is properly >>> implemented, e.g. by major modes). Only a handful of bindings are context dependent. In particular, control/shift/meta-arrow keys, , and C-c C-c. They are most frequently used when editing and navigating Org buffers. It would help if "properly implemented" were defined more precisely in the above statement. > This is not a criticism, just a description of how Org is perceived from > the side of "old-time Emacs users who aren't Org users". > The key in what you wrote above is the "yes, many of them", which means > that even tho those tweaks are minor they sum up to something that > old-time users will almost inevitably bump into. > > It's not a problem for Org itself, and there are good reasons for each > one of those tweaks, I'm sure, but it does create opposition to using > Org "in core", such as in etc/NEWS. I understand. However, such criticism is not helpful. Only concrete examples can lead to actual Org improvements in this area. Best, Ihor