From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lars Ingebrigtsen Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2022 13:49:22 +0200 Message-ID: <87h725olz1.fsf@gnus.org> References: <87ilmlluxq.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <87ilmlluxq.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="=-=-=" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27917"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Aug 21 13:51:35 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oPjUN-00075M-3F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 13:51:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55162 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oPjUM-0008MO-3l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 07:51:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56396) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oPjSQ-0006iz-BD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 07:49:34 -0400 Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2]:59328) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oPjSL-0000l7-8h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 07:49:34 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:Date:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=Ug/4d29NwF31gfGpwOmy01ahpiXzSbFYi4nuzln2z/U=; b=M6u91SnDym1YiRG9Lhj80bNRme t/ey4F9EhdagunUf+5f75B+7LWirWBLlB3MZEaG5NNh4XjMcRdYHFjaNOjnwUwzSex38bY9Mv57VO uAo+y4s4/otSoEhi9G34EzxCFH2Vkf3v2EbzM78l6gOQx/6leZUxesB9AC57deJP+tFI=; Original-Received: from [84.212.220.105] (helo=joga) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oPjSF-0001WH-6J; Sun, 21 Aug 2022 13:49:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87ilmlluxq.fsf@yahoo.com> (Po Lu's message of "Sun, 21 Aug 2022 19:04:01 +0800") Face: iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAADAAAAAwAgMAAAAqbBEUAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBj SFJNAAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAADFBMVEUTBgZdJiewdjL/ //8rHmheAAAAAWJLR0QDEQxM8gAAAAd0SU1FB+YIFQslEKJvkTEAAAFVSURBVCjPRZK9asMwEMdP QRJtJhtkSDR1KIXmKRSIO0uQ85Apgw2tn8KBdk+XQDt1cEqtp+xJiu0bJP38v5PuwwA3yzLLQeXo RF4i2R6y3LnC4bZ0ARytOZZREYjKUsgeBQfpYbalNzM0l36GdWVnmGOyCRQAeYhrhFXGOtqOSVEL WlkEUSt1C2XA/kawDMTQ2vRZMSO875KiopJgT8CGTUrRbkoDj+0tX41bWuj+kJPKjThJyiy9Y14+ 4Dkp9wCf71wDjyXt2NlybVYBnk5m9QBLeI31dXYtrPaxfrkDLezG/4QrqgYOsjtQm5YAv0fQA6eG hpcuNWvPd3QOl/t+4Tv+lnJre0nVJGBVL51hEYRtagDD6uRWUC9MyoyA5HEUBRoozHiuzKQgfnfF BJW/tjjOh2wox5l6f/3C5KaDYLFmoVURwg9hqOshpKd9cpvmLXE+/wPSrVmCZ8bLHQAAACV0RVh0 ZGF0ZTpjcmVhdGUAMjAyMi0wOC0yMVQxMTozNzoxNSswMDowMPQM2RMAAAAldEVYdGRhdGU6bW9k aWZ5ADIwMjItMDgtMjFUMTE6Mzc6MTUrMDA6MDCFUWGvAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC X-Now-Playing: Cirkus Modern's =?utf-8?Q?=5FTr=C3=B8st=5F=3A?= "Hun har meg =?utf-8?Q?n=C3=A5?= (jeg holder hodet varmt)" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:4f9:2b:f0f::2; envelope-from=larsi@gnus.org; helo=quimby.gnus.org X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293690 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Po Lu writes: > Users of the GTK 3 build experience many, many problems. The most > recent such problem is bug#56869, which is definitely a bug in GTK. Yes, and we have to fix bug#56869 by working around the problem, as we do with all OS/library-related issues. Just because it's something else that's "wrong" doesn't mean we can ignore the issue. > Taking into account the very low quality of the GDK X11 backend, which > is not seeing active maintenance, shouldn't the build default to some > other toolkit such as Motif, or even better, no toolkit at all? > > Especially considering that a GTK developer (the tail) wants to remove > support for X11 (the dog) in future releases of GTK: > > https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/5004 Love the ending there: "Since this issue found its way on Phoronix and reddit I'm going to temporarily lock it, to ensure a modicum of decency and avoid lowering the bar of the comments." Anyway, I'm all in favour of defaulting to a no-toolkit build (across all systems -- the astounding success of VS Code has show that having a consistent look across systems is much more important than respecting the look of the OS). But we have to fix the no-toolkit look before we can contemplate that. 1) New toolbar icons: --=-=-= Content-Type: image/png Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAYEAAABBCAIAAAC4pI9zAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBjSFJN AAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAABmJLR0QA/wD/AP+gvaeTAAAA EGNhTnYAAA8AAAAJYAAAB6oAAAHS84AMAgAADOpJREFUeNrtnVtsFNcZx/978R1jW/gGlAC1SrkZ BC0gVU2LTWoqnlqpSaW24olWURT1qX2gqnjrUyshNVSNitQHSJDah/YpBNwG2kJDSiDmFmNDqW3A lxh8w/fdmdk+fOccn52dXc+ud/es4+/3YM+cnTlz2dmZ/3c53wAMswIJbfvFjUgsFovFYvbQH9qK +YwYI8ingGEYg/A9iGEYkwQGBgb4LDAMY4pwd3c3nwWGYUzBthjDMCbhexDDMCbhexDDMCbhexDD MCYJ8ylYFrS0tuRhK5cvXeZTzeQZ1kEMw5hkcR3U0pKrJ/Dly/zUXezkS/nz4UfnAJSXl+VoQ1c+ vKlvjgURkzdYBzEMYxK+BzEMY5JUthhZYXfv3gXQ1NREjWVlmZgDkUiEJvr6+gCcOHECmpXHRpnH yW9tATAwcItmh5/35HRzL3/tKwDeevuX+tZXoEV2/vx54/tw5MiRdFfp7e0FsGXLFtfPbVnAOohh GJMs7pMmBZSZ/FEUF4sCLSMjIwCOHz8OqYYAbN++HTlTQ+n61AtKlPU+7kzx6dzcXMY9z8zOJjbW 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together a set of consistent (and pretty) toolbar icons. 2) Background glitches: I've got *background: black, and that makes "emacs -Q" look like this: --=-=-= Content-Type: image/png Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAPYAAAC8CAIAAADEs8SVAAAABGdBTUEAALGPC/xhBQAAACBjSFJN AAB6JgAAgIQAAPoAAACA6AAAdTAAAOpgAAA6mAAAF3CculE8AAAABmJLR0QA/wD/AP+gvaeTAAAA EGNhTnYAAA8AAAAJYAAAB6EAAAGVbOjpIAAAJjNJREFUeNrtXXd8VFXafu69U1JIr4QACQRCIPTe OyKuBRXElUVd2y6WFetaPr9VV1cWV+ziqnx2BBVdLKAIoROWEkJNCCEJpLeZZPrMvfd8f9x7J5Nk EibJTCYJ5/n5k8ydmTunPPc573nf95zD3Lj8nvioXoEq2M3Grzd/b7dZExL7g4Kip4Bpfik9PZ22 C0WPAUubgIJSnIKCUpyCglKcgoJSnIKCUpyCglKcgoJSnIJSnIKCUpyCglKcgoJSnIKCUpyCglKc gqJFqJpf0uv1tF0oegyoilNceSCE0Eag6DGgKk5BKU5BQSlOQUEpTkHhJ4qPD1RrnK8YJpBT0Uah 6FEUv7f/gBcTowZyUGtCe2sD+mjUXa+Q6mlrC3jSAuzHnk3naEe20nqhiUMnL1x6z6NPL0u/EvWL BZjw4Oi7YiKvT4jrxTKMj38udsbjXx4u0pn0BXveuz09iBLQ1/3b78HtlRdPH9i68d9r/nptCncF 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menus: The menus are unreadably small on a HiDPI display. 5) The scroll bar has to be fixed to work as modern scroll bars to, not emulate the actions of an 80s Xterm. I.e., you have to be able to drag the scrool widget, and click above and below it, and have the thing happen that normal users expect. Once those five things are in place, we should default to a no-toolkit build, which will give us a lot more control of Emacs behaviour, and not rely on odd tics in each toolkit, and in addition, allow daemon/multi-display shutdown to work reliably. --=-=-=--