From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Po Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 11:41:01 +0800 Message-ID: <87h72248c2.fsf@yahoo.com> References: <8735dn30if.fsf@gmail.com> <87pmgr8m3t.fsf@yahoo.com> <83pmgr88sk.fsf@gnu.org> <87sfln6t3p.fsf@yahoo.com> <83ilmj873l.fsf@gnu.org> <8735dn6rp7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87edx7hu15.fsf@telefonica.net> <83y1vf6ixp.fsf@gnu.org> <87zgfuhpz8.fsf@telefonica.net> <83o7wa7v6g.fsf@gnu.org> <87r116h7a9.fsf@telefonica.net> <87a67u5s9e.fsf@yahoo.com> <87bksagx8r.fsf@telefonica.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34325"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.91 (gnu/linux) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?=C3=93scar?= Fuentes Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 24 05:42:02 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oQhHG-0008k2-0f for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 24 Aug 2022 05:42:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33800 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQhHE-0004jW-FT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 23:42:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37656) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQhGY-0003y9-3Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 23:41:18 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic314-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.189.148]:44689) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oQhGV-0005HG-F2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Aug 2022 23:41:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661312471; bh=HJlYUuYFRMFWi32zEFlS7Vdx5jWswRKQ8wJ+ujFOo7U=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From:Subject:Reply-To; b=Dyp9e1Y//dvrDjPs0s8+MYQbQBOJxJRTxVi3OlcqaM6HfeG+uO/+tyM9d1P60m7jtWkXuS079Zjngb2SxKd3lK0A0WUjTA4si3+x/w2Z4IX/WLE8jDl5wrO4TuWPFIJIfzqsIHBbtN6ArvGu+mAJAQUzJ/j9qUVj3YtKWrbj1SLME0NsHYHTlLQnvttTVJo9REF5IQPLFB+Cahw4JZrcpNLqEtaQXnE76IQNbqCSB7R1P+r5UPmyFZKFCtFQKIIaxQrb3ppY8roq5pIEtrHXNsvMXqbjQHwvlDyFEn/MHkroMHPqAJKWii1gU3r73bZ5y+bTtPXCD8l+xKZa7Yuzog== X-SONIC-DKIM-SIGN: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1661312471; bh=H+OTzPXrGOr2etj5NRWHQC15hQYK6bvstv3MCOfXXXv=; h=X-Sonic-MF:From:To:Subject:Date:From:Subject; b=SUJR7VVhp0LvdS7LBIO9sTkkqd3bs+Ex/ZpdLlLl+2eSJeC7GLOkNX3LDv+lJYnjY9o+GbyUFdhuOKnRO1CwlQTK+e8oi824+I71SEIYjHlAZym9WbjQHUUoEBSeO7r1nC1SLq0ecVaGjNp16HV9ZrhP2kF/8iNxuS6kW1AVsnHI8DsAfs/AHYyWKESvr6r9ITKAUY+r2UXWrTGLeBsAzfpfBVn9S5dlpGTi5EsB0t+W03TBiske7C1r44PO+/jnDYGi24UJ5wD4Djr3Y4gyZenXeQ4uvavQ8s2neDwZLuBD7Lr0HPYVh6fKG9fCrHLWN989m+5tNbTx8Uh4JLqTTQ== X-YMail-OSG: YYiLbJkVM1nQhz9Grqqq97YO8JBJViUralCBJG_dvyC86Y8UzczQYhlvocf32nQ 51yRkKn932_yzjCBAv_npoJfYu7K0b7e54RlarM_fxvRK4m2JpmucnGXs62b_nFPsg7D6iLpm_AY XjjSVGe_8piN.Aq7IecAhDW5qGs0GrrPYRx9zOYedkLufdlQmAziJA_sqfgTreD3xNtoEAZZGSg. qTVw_1_iuSCwivEPmfmkRJ8Srpv4x9ieHvVuCanlMMEIcMosVMHnFdNASTjaOerdzfZi3hjJibQc uQmcrIMDhD4fzHTxQFsbTXR9FUk7VGlZM2p.MRTIXRjh3s7jps3B6Z_M_0u1d5ahZsze2GFZE_gi MoBs3oMCiySaRJ8MA352J8iXh_vmZNnFs2d.P1ISDyWCwYyWmPgG3PjKiRvmvcdIvh14VD8pK1GE S1YN._z.jKYU6Dn0jkxlx1DMAFosk5Um2gj7476IAgBgvukzoE32gtjZQfrcqEQ2PpzmZuukHlRz TqqBu.oXG73ELXxrpuhxERRFBb87CE.MkaPJSCfzJ2YraXwq3oF23jFO3yyNS.tBG.utBQcUB6TG 2C2uXblFtGpy3qxEOGvC5WYcxh4IwMcQtiXRzDKrKMS7bG1njVtG4sP.d0U74WOfaSCAV_D6EiPN nXVdeblzFWow6XPhoomW0jl2p3OY9oc740A9uDfy1LuArwcGvuf.yKsFDeDgjjP12solUUF2hNPg x7BA9eh2ZWk.f2pCQWhlusLjYlmRgr8cd7BFkcrRn0YpYxKU_k_0egnL7M7_WOaNdVWGs70dVavx EtRlnvY_Ixzp6ce8g.g8JofUE1pj.WGXu6TdXXdQM5 X-Sonic-MF: Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 24 Aug 2022 03:41:11 +0000 Original-Received: by hermes--canary-production-sg3-6f58cd9b5-fnk8z (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID def084d05f23705b314ae5ce382227a0; Wed, 24 Aug 2022 03:41:05 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87bksagx8r.fsf@telefonica.net> (=?utf-8?Q?=22=C3=93scar?= Fuentes"'s message of "Wed, 24 Aug 2022 05:02:12 +0200") X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20560 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.163.189.148; envelope-from=luangruo@yahoo.com; helo=sonic314-22.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:293936 Archived-At: =C3=93scar Fuentes writes: > Suppose you discover that some people are writing customization recipes > on a popular Wiki page that make use of internal Emacs code for whatever > purpose, and you know that once you change that code people will come to > complain about you for breaking their setups. We will not change such code on purpose, just because someone is writing customization recipes based on it. In fact, I would look into making it "not internal", should it prove useful. And we will never, ever, resort to name-calling! > Of course, that's no excuse for calling names on anyone, but otherwise > what he did is not unreasonable. All of it is unreasonable. > Well, I said that he is an occasional contributor after looking at his > activity map, which is not very colorful. > > OTOH, he belonging to the official team may explain why he was not > censured. That doesn't mean that other team members sympathize with his > action. All of the GTK developers do it. This is the personal experience of almost everyone who has tried to write real software with GTK. > There is a bitter disagreement there, for sure. But I've experienced > worse dealing with KDE/Qt maintainers and I still am a happy KDE user. > That is, if you think that by switching to Qt you will deal with more > reasonable and polite people, you are wrong. They are the same kind of > human beings, like we are here. I don't think Qt maintainers will proactively seek to break user's customizations and call them names. > There is no assurance whatsoever that you will not get that type of > reaction from a Qt developer. I had similar discussions with highly > competent maintainers of top-tier projects and it requires empathy, > politeness, patience and skillful dialogue. Not to say that this > guarantees success, but starting with the attitude of "I'm obviously > right and you are doing wrong" poses a big risk of a strong-headed > rejection. I've never seen that kind of reaction from a Qt developer, or even a GTK developer in the 2.x days. Such behavior is not excusable and immediately excludes such a toolkit from being suitable for any software, including Emacs.