From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Philip Kaludercic Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2023 08:13:42 +0000 Message-ID: <87h6m3w8y1.fsf@posteo.net> References: <46ab3c7d-d820-4bb4-8ec4-97c614d7c8a0@alphapapa.net> <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <83r0l771rl.fsf@gnu.org> <87sf5nwa4a.fsf@posteo.net> <83il6j6ze2.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5075"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rms@gnu.org, joaotavora@gmail.com, adam@alphapapa.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 03 09:14:54 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qypKP-000150-0o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 09:14:53 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qypJX-00066O-57; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 04:13:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qypJT-00065w-Aj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 04:13:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qypJL-0007vq-0Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 04:13:55 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EE78240028 for ; Fri, 3 Nov 2023 09:13:44 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1698999224; bh=h7TAH9GV1Un/rc6zQJAnu5FcT0PruXUKRxaPpfFwlQQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Autocrypt:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:From; b=QJ5hm7mzM+SIIVezr3XRQG705buz4gAJ4iCZWtA1+djo/M2hgE8AO632jO+XLpVj8 Bi1NeMaKahWJijJjmvcoIwqT9A46VgyofRk+PLvmhfJrB6yMdBLXabMK8Eco5/b3F8 IIn1+++lqj3VojiQST2JxWzHq8hDF9oJYji7Ll8X2B6O8gN9Iv47B/+HHh1HFkdx1c kSbI0/Wq2qcA16EtFNb/duJXcmeXCABPCsE+U5fs06GDu4482lkKGgd7+Tv0DDnEes qo8oDX7v0CNHPuf5s4twROnt4hU+5E5qKfxJyEnE+0QllyFk/zBl7Fypy2lVH/lRiA 965R1hQS9gz9w== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4SMD5z3c61z9rxD; Fri, 3 Nov 2023 09:13:43 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <83il6j6ze2.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Fri, 03 Nov 2023 09:59:17 +0200") Autocrypt: addr=philipk@posteo.net; keydata= mDMEZBBQQhYJKwYBBAHaRw8BAQdAHJuofBrfqFh12uQu0Yi7mrl525F28eTmwUDflFNmdui0QlBo aWxpcCBLYWx1ZGVyY2ljIChnZW5lcmF0ZWQgYnkgYXV0b2NyeXB0LmVsKSA8cGhpbGlwa0Bwb3N0 ZW8ubmV0PoiWBBMWCAA+FiEEDg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwMFCQHhM4AFCwkI BwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwulikAEA77hloUiSrXgFkUVJhlKBpLCHUjA0 mWZ9j9w5d08+jVwBAK6c4iGP7j+/PhbkxaEKa4V3MzIl7zJkcNNjHCXmvFcEuDgEZBBQQhIKKwYB BAGXVQEFAQEHQI5NLiLRjZy3OfSt1dhCmFyn+fN/QKELUYQetiaoe+MMAwEIB4h+BBgWCAAmFiEE Dg7HY17ghYlni8XN8xYDWXahwukFAmQQUEICGwwFCQHhM4AACgkQ8xYDWXahwukm+wEA8cml4JpK NeAu65rg+auKrPOP6TP/4YWRCTIvuYDm0joBALw98AMz7/qMHvSCeU/hw9PL6u6R2EScxtpKnWof z4oM Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=philipk@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312154 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >> >> Could you explain what you mean by "traditional" Emacs Lisp? >> > >> > Basically, the language as it is, without macros whose syntax is >> > different from Emacs Lisp. For example, cl-loop has syntax that to my >> > eyes is starkly not Emacs Lisp, because it uses many keyword-like >> > parts that look like they were lifted from Fortran. >> >> Then again (cl-)loop is a peculiar example; even among CL programmers >> there are many that dislike using it on the same grounds. > > Grepping our own sources for "(cl-loop" comes back with more than 760 > hits. That's more than one use for every 2 Lisp files in our tree. > > And cl-loop is not the only example of additions whose syntax deviates > from Emacs Lisp traditions. It certainly has fans, though I believe this is more due to the utility and flexibility than the syntax. If there were a Elisp'ish alternative (in the sense in which pcase is also an alternative to cl-case -- assuming that you see pcase as Elisp'ish?), then I honestly believe it could be more popular than cl-loop. I would be disappointed if being Elisp'ish would mean that these kinds of language features per se wouldn't be permissible.