From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gud lord! Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:36:29 +0900 Organization: The XEmacs Project Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <87fzmgenxe.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <16098.1698.415992.223606@nick.uklinux.net> <1055004206.1439.12.camel@lan1> <20030607210527.GA20914@gnu.org> <1055023668.1517.46.camel@lan1> <200306072235.h57MZcUn014593@rum.cs.yale.edu> <1055030465.30724.87.camel@lan1> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1055339070 28538 80.91.224.249 (11 Jun 2003 13:44:30 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 13:44:30 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 11 15:44:27 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 19Q5tj-0007Ps-00 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:44:19 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 #1 (Debian)) id 19Q6Ej-0001tD-00 for ; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 16:06:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Q5w1-0007sB-0E for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:46:41 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19Q5vR-0007Zi-2y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:46:05 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.20) id 19Q5oW-0005Hg-PT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:38:57 -0400 Original-Received: from tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.98.109]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19Q5mH-00040j-FX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 09:36:37 -0400 Original-Received: from steve by tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp with local (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19Q5mA-0006lX-00; Wed, 11 Jun 2003 22:36:30 +0900 Original-To: Robert Anderson In-Reply-To: <1055030465.30724.87.camel@lan1> (Robert Anderson's message of "07 Jun 2003 17:01:04 -0700") User-Agent: Gnus/5.1002 (Gnus v5.10.2) XEmacs/21.4 (Portable Code, linux) Original-cc: emacs X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1b5 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Archive: List-Unsubscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:15033 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:15033 >>>>> "Robert" == Robert Anderson writes: Robert> One [arch-mode for Emacs] is by Walter Landry and one of Robert> them is by Stephen J. Turnbull (who also does Xemacs Robert> development and Landry's arch-mode looks quite complete. My own mode is not appropriate, both because it is extremely incomplete, and because it deliberately enforces a particular discipline of software engineering that I aspire to, but can't get myself to do as a matter of habit without a supervisor. My s.o. refuses to take on that role. :-) Robert> has been talking about the possibility of using arch for Robert> Xemacs). The talk about using arch for XEmacs was before I knew much about the practical side of arch. Things are looking much better for the near future, but I would not want to use the current stable version of arch on a project as big as an Emacs. The arch that Emacs would want to use is just now being developed. Among other things, there's a new algorithm being implemented that claims to make the kind of development that's being done in the repeated cross-pollination of emacs HEAD and emacs-unicode much easier to track and manage. But it only has two users at the moment (literally two, I think). Tom Lord has suggested that he doesn't see much in it that existing facilities don't do, but this hasn't really been proved yet. I think that puts "paid" to the notion that arch is "stable" at this point in time. Also, XEmacs has an important motivation for using arch that Emacs does not: it would make our package maintainers _much_ happier by getting rid of the "must be in XEmacs repository" requirement, which duplicates home-grown repositories in many cases. This also means that we may be able to "dip our toes in the water" first, which Emacs really couldn't. I think it would be a very good idea for the Emacs community to let XEmacs take the lead on this one, at least if it's going to happen in the next 18 months. After that, there should be some large-project experience (in terms of MB of code managed, eg, Jonathan Walther's Xouvert and an XEmacs branch), and maybe some experience with large projects where the metric is # of developers. I will likely create an XEmacs arch repository within a month. If it works for me, I'll find a way to publish it during the summer so others can access it. I'll try to remember to keep notes, so GNU Emacs can profit from my experience, or (if appropriate), simply cut your losses at "just five minutes of your time" by ignoring the whole thing thereafter ;-). >> - is arch available on all the platforms used by Emacs >> developers and other people trying things out via the anon-CVS >> repository ? Robert> This is probably the biggest hurdle. The answer is "very Robert> likely not." Especially if non-cygwin windows support is Robert> required. This is why an interim interoperation scenario Robert> is almost certainly the way to go. It doesn't work for me OOTB on Mac OS X, but I haven't tried very hard. (I keep suppressing csh in one context after another, and it keeps popping up in odd places; that may have something to do with arch on MacOS difficulties since arch really insists on a POSIX sh.) Robert> In any case, I think an emacs mode is a very minor point Robert> wrt the value of adoption. Not to Emacs developers. -- Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp University of Tsukuba Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN Ask not how you can "do" free software business; ask what your business can "do for" free software.